104 replies to this topic

[Xacius]

Good thing too since HFC was doomed to fail before it started, lol.

wildstar 2 stronk

[TheButtSatisfier]

honestly you don't even need high mmr players cause it's just a number

 

MMR isn't a random number, so it isn't "just" a number. Sure, the variance in player skill may be pretty wide sub 2000 MMR, but it becomes more accurate at representing player skill the higher the MMR.

 

Put another way: you can discredit MMR all you want, but I'm relatively certain that you aren't going to get a team of 2300 MMR players to beat a team on Omni's level. Not unless you put them through rigorous training - and I'm talking nine months of intense drills at best. At that point, you've essentially taken a 2300 MMR team and nurtured their game until their MMR grew to near-Omni levels.

 

If you had a team with a 2600 MMR average then you'd probably need less time for training, etc.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 11 February 2016 - 12:37 PM.

[Hyginos]

 but it becomes more accurate at representing player skill the higher the MMR.

 

oh boy another MMR discussion

 

But I think the opposite might be true. It would seem that the resolution of MMR as a skill predictor is inversely proportional to the distance from the mean.

[CraftyDus]

Good thing too since HFC was doomed to fail before it started, lol.

They could have been contenders. I'll give them that.
Would have been a better playoff had they played.

[HOHOHOSANTA]

MMR isn't a random number, so it isn't "just" a number. Sure, the variance in player skill may be pretty wide sub 2000 MMR, but it becomes more accurate at representing player skill the higher the MMR.

 

Put another way: you can discredit MMR all you want, but I'm relatively certain that you aren't going to get a team of 2300 MMR players to beat a team on Omni's level. Not unless you put them through rigorous training - and I'm talking nine months of intense drills at best. At that point, you've essentially taken a 2300 MMR team and nurtured their game until their MMR grew to near-Omni levels.

 

If you had a team with a 2600 MMR average then you'd probably need less time for training, etc.

well for example im a 2600 mmr player but my mmr dropped, but I still can play at my level of skill? so it is just a number because it happens to alot of us. and it goes up and down for alot of us due to the limited amount of players and majority of them being low mmr we get mixed in the games causing imbalance. so imo its just a number

[Aregon]

Can we please just shut up about MMR in one thread so long it is not connected to the topic at hand?

 

Thanks

[JeffMagnum]

honestly you don't even need high mmr players cause it's just a number but if you have a team that can click in terms of coordination but do know how to play of course then they have a chance. Also from when I've started I can honestly alot of us have improved to atleast keep up with most people and others are still at their current level from when u first joined the game.

 

The first part isn't really accurate, and "high-MMR"  in this context is usually used in an equivalent way to something along the lines of "top 20 globally" and doesn't really refer to the number itself. But anyway, you're not going to be able to counter Omni's reliance on 1v1 superiority with a team full of above-average players coordinating well. I know the top players have changed some, but that was the only viable team at that point in time and honestly there probably isn't even a combination of active players right now after the recruitment of Xacius, Dave, devo, and Climatic that could take on Omni if they decided to dedicate more time to practicing. Like I'm not trying to talk fuzzy bunny on people, but it's true. This isn't even an individual skill thing; it's possible to match them at that, but no one has the experience as well as the desire to get an extremely cohesive and skilled team together plus manage all of the conflicts that would arise in a group made up of completely different personalities. 

Edited by Brumbpo Tungus, 11 February 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[ArchMech]

andddddddd we just don't care™

[TheButtSatisfier]

well for example im a 2600 mmr player but my mmr dropped, but I still can play at my level of skill? so it is just a number because it happens to alot of us. and it goes up and down for alot of us due to the limited amount of players and majority of them being low mmr we get mixed in the games causing imbalance. so imo its just a number

 

I should have elaborated, but when I say a XXXX MMR player, I mean whatever MMR average that player is at. My MMR has fluctuated from 2350 to 2500ish, so I consider myself a 2400 MMR player. I don't mean a player who at a snapshot in time has 2300 MMR, I mean a player whose average and reliable MMR is 2300.

 

But I think the opposite might be true. It would seem that the resolution of MMR as a skill predictor is inversely proportional to the distance from the mean.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this is accurate, especially since you have a better understanding of how MMR is calculated than I do. To make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying that a 5 MMR difference between players in the 1800s would be a more accurate predictor of skill difference than a 5 MMR difference between players in the 2600s?

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 11 February 2016 - 01:50 PM.

[Hyginos]

Can we please just shut up about MMR in one thread so long it is not connected to the topic at hand?

 

Thanks

 

Right! back on topic:

 

 

TLDR: You're all bad.

Edited by Hyginos, 11 February 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[Merl61]

"The thing that makes Omni so good is their longevity and consistency"...

 

"Their skill can be matched"

 

So you're telling me that there are others that can match Omni skill, skill they've had pretty much from the beginning, yet teams couldn't beat them before "longevity" came into play either?

http://www.tpgleague...kna/match/8058/

[JeffMagnum]

I should have elaborated, but when I say a XXXX MMR player, I mean whatever MMR average that player is at. My MMR has fluctuated from 2350 to 2500ish, so I consider myself a 2400 MMR player. I don't mean a player who at a snapshot in time has 2300 MMR, I mean a player whose average and reliable MMR is 2300.

 

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this is accurate, especially since you have a better understanding of how MMR is calculated than I do. To make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying that a 5 MMR difference between players in the 1800s would be a more accurate predictor of skill difference than a 5 MMR difference between players in the 2600s?

 

5 MMR means absolutely nothing. If you're talking about values like 1700/2000 vs 2600/2900 though, what you said is true.

[Xacius]

http://www.tpgleague...kna/match/8058/

 

 

Fundamental Attribution Error (FAE), the Actor-Observer Effect, and Self-Serving Bias: When explaining another person's behaviour, we often over-emphasize personal factors while de-emphasizing situational factors. If someone steals food, for example, our immediate assumption is that they're morally deficient. It's only after our initial judgment that we (sometimes) review situational factors. Conversely, we attribute too much to these situational factors when describing our own behaviour. Combined, these two tendencies are described by the Actor-Observer Effect. Our attributions are further skewed through our attempts to enhance self-esteem. In what's termed Self-Serving Bias, we avoid personal responsibility by attributing failure to situational factors; success, though, is unduly attributed to our own efforts and traits.

 

Put simply, we're bad at making attributions. We ignore situational factors when explaining the behaviour of others, and over-emphasize them while explaining our own. Add to that our tendency to interpret events in the most ego-boosting way possible, and you've a pretty poor recipe for self-improvement.

 

But what does that look like in the context of gaming? Omni tends to take extended breaks from our competitive games. When we return, we're rusty. We'll organize scrims, and our scrim partners almost invariably attribute their improved performance to personal factors: they've improved as a team, they're now better duelists, they're running better strats. Our deteriorated state is given only minor consideration, if any. Conversely, these teams are very quick to mention their own rustiness. And when they encounter a practiced Omni team, out come the excuses: poor hit registration, graphics lag, network lag, slightly different team compositions, etc. Ability gaps are rarely recognized, and credit is rarely given. Again, not a Hawken-specific thing.

http://www.tpgleague...kna/match/8091/

[Dew]

wildstar 2 stronk

 

I maintain that HFC A-Team would have won TPG decisively if Wildstar hadn't RUINED EVERYTHING.

[CraftyDus]

This thread is adorable and an example of why I have maintain a throbbing bromance for Nept on my worst days.

 

It reminds me of my self  in my younger days when I had my first post-season strat-dump.

 

You guys had a great 3 seasons, I will miss you in ut, and hope you come back eventually.

[Amidatelion]

Right! back on topic:

 

To expand:

 

 

TLDR: You're all bad and consistently fail to listen when I explain why.

Edited by Amidatelion, 11 February 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Hyginos]

[16:03] <Nept> IT'S ALMOST LIKE I SAW THIS COMING
[16:03] <Nept> AND BUILT REBUTTALS INTO THE OP

[devotion]

It reminds me of my self  in my younger days when I had my first post-season strat-dump.

i had always suspected you played dod in 1911

[ArchMech]

apply thy ingenuity towards the goal of immortality otherwise all is lost, afterwords this will be a lot more fun as we'll have allllllllll the time in the world for it

 

all discussions will be settled and moot as well, as we shall of already engaged in such discussions, or can we agree we reached that point at least some time ago now?

 

optimize individual performance through introspection

 

if found lacking do or remember to do the following

 

streamline info oriented communication - short concise bursts with frequented or team designated location/or callsign's and only relevant targeting data as such, class/spec, unless priority listings by player are applicable, listen more, time interjections seemlessly, info from player A and player B should never intersect and should be of a collaborative sense

 

verbal commands - from all players when viable, designated caller(s) where necessary 

 

equip thyself - with higher quality material as required for competitively leveled playing field, where necessary make a gofundme and spam social networks with it

 

enhance aim - by adjusting all relevant settings and acquiring a smooth, quick, and spatially (both physically and virtually) conscious sense of hand eye coordination, where necessary seek advice or guidance

 

enhance teamwork - by combining communication with aim to engage in focus fire a keystone to victory in high pressure TTK situations such as the entirety of hawken both casual and professional, as well as elsewhere,

 

maintain awareness of allied positioning, pay attention to allied (game avatar) body language and HP, "ok we push here" "switch defenders now" "rotate" "suppress that" wordlessly

 

work with you're team more often OFF the field

 

idk, explore the vast gaming industry and see if you learn something on another platform you can utilize here, or that something you learned here allows to to excel elsewhere

 

DONT enhance YOURSELF with mind altering drugs like ridallin or adirall unless prescribed otherwise, if prescribed try not to overly exploit the affects (weed is a plant tho)

 

DONT enhance ANY aspects with 3rd party software or 3rd party programmable hardware in example (i.e) mice that account for weapon spread/recoil, motherboards that apply vague and limited radar functionality tied with sound channels, auto trigger software

 

exceptions: dpi mousewheel, three dimensional HD head phones, non-macroed keyboard/mouse buttons/keybind/combo-keybind, using an xbox controller (unless you fiddled with the damn thing....)

 

don't second guess  and dont be "that guy"

Edited by aFKingTroll, 11 February 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[CraftyDus]

i had always suspected you played dod in 1911

 

It's almost true though

I was CraftyDus 100 years before I found Hawken

I was one of the legends

 

Spoiler

I played as a light auto which is extremely rare and unusual at this level. In a game dominated by heavies, rifles , and snipers I hold my own against most any of the best invite players in one of the oldest continuously viable comp scene this side of q3 arena.

In fact, the winner of dozens of cal, cevo, and tpg rings in over a decade of regular competition, comp gaming legend Corey "JaGGoN" Marko remarked in his thread "Your biggest DOD infuences" ;

"LIGHTS
jaz & Craftydus - These two were just the most famous of the absolutely insane class of lights that topped the American dod scene for a very long time but they were all absolutely explosive. Aim, reaction time, sense of the game, flashyness, bling, you name it these 2 had it. To this day I still watch all of their movies from time to time to keep some of their more creative play style tactics fresh in my mind."
--Postby JaGGoNdd »

Your biggest DOD influences Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:52 am http://nineteeneleve...php?f=34&t=3536

[Amidatelion]

words

 

Reported for not trolling what the actual fuzz

[ArchMech]

andddddddd we just don't care™

 

Reported for not trolling what the actual fuzz

 

reported Amidatelion for false accusations and slanderous comments

[angryhampster]

wow, everything is getting out of hand. bring jamie lannister

[RedVan]

http://www.tpgleague...kna/match/8058/

I guess I don't consider winning one match as "matching skill".  I'd say Xacius summed it up well though

[LEmental]

wildstar 2 stronk

RIP MexichanMan

Best hellfires NA

Edited by LEmental, 12 February 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[coldform]

Nept came out to a TDM practice per our request, and introduced us to sparring: simple 1v1 fights, with one player being a target, and one person shooting.

The target did not return fire, instead, tried to the best of their ability to avoid taking damage from the shooter. The shooter's role is obvious, except the shooter does not complete the kill - once the target is low enough for a oneshot, the target is allowed to repair. This is repeated for a duration of time, and then roles switch.

This drill alone could help any and all pilots, regardless of skill level, comp involvement, or playstyle.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

^ Interesting way to learn to dance. I like it.

[coldform]

^ Interesting way to learn to dance. I like it.

Lol - once we understood what this drill improves, I felt stupid for not trying this in the first place.

U wanna git gud at a shooter with a dodging mechanic? Practice dodging and shooting. Duh.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Why does the timeless classic No Easy Way Out from the Rocky IV soundtrack play in my head when I think of practicing in this manner?

[DeeRax]

The video I posted was what I imagined will happen to me if I simply obey Nept's easy-to-follow instruction manual.

[crockrocket]

The video I posted was what I imagined will happen to me if I simply obey Nept's easy-to-follow instruction manual.

 

Gain 400 mmr in 3 days with this one weird trick! Skrubs HATE him!

[DeeRax]

LMFAO. Exactly.

[Nept]

Edited OP with the following:

 

Facility Strategy in Action.  Note the comms, as well.

 

 

 

Comms on Origin (ALSO LISTEN TO XACIUS CLEAR HIS THROAT CONSTANTLY)

 

 

 

On Practice and Ego.

 

Lol - once we understood what this drill improves, I felt stupid for not trying this in the first place.

U wanna git gud at a shooter with a dodging mechanic? Practice dodging and shooting. Duh.

 

Inefficient practice is pretty par for the course. Think about things logically, though: If you were playing hockey and your wrist shot needed improvement, would you run constant Offense vs. Defense drills? Scrimmage a lot? Or would you just shoot a lot of pucks?

 

People don't often think deeply about practice, or they let their egos and short attention spans enter the equation.  Sometimes, for example, players prefer dueling because they usually win.  Their "practice" becomes an opportunity to showcase superiority.  But by focusing on dueling (which emphasizes positioning, radar awareness, and corner play), they're often neglecting target acquisition time and raw accuracy. Encounters during competitive play are frantic, quick affairs – you don't have thirty seconds for careful positioning. That isn't to say that dueling isn't good practice, but it might not be the practice you need most - especially if you're consistently beating your practice partner(s).  Conversely, many players avoid dueling because they don't want to lose.

 

Asides from providing motivation and drive, ego has no place in practice.  It muddies self-analysis, preventing people from identifying issues; it causes rifts between teammates; and it often dissuades people from practicing in the first place - either because they believe themselves above it, or because they don't want to lose face. 

 

And yes, Omnis have egos. Ego, pride, all those supposedly awful things – they actually promote self-improvement, provided your actions and attributions don't revolve around delusion. When Omni performs poorly, we accept responsibility, analyze the issues, and efficiently address them. We avoid idle preening. We avoid ego-driven avoidance.

 

Omni preempts ego-related problems through two mechanisms: 1) our players are mindful of their egos and direct them accordingly; 2) our players listen to their teammates, and to their leader. We identify weaknesses and expect that they'll be addressed. That's it. There's no arguing about it, and there's no denial. We assess against the game's best – both within and outside Omni – so as to maintain a comfortable skill differential. And one more (egotistical) thing: we're nowhere near our maximum potential. We simply practiced to the point where we could comfortably defeat all opposition.

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 12 February 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[Onebullit]

Hahaha...

So, how much money did omni make with online gaming

Win any tournaments that are worth mentioning?

[breadeffect]

And one more (egotistical) thing: we're nowhere near our maximum potential. We simply practiced to the point where we could comfortably defeat all opposition.

 

"This isn't even my final form."

[Sylhiri]

And one more (egotistical) thing: we're nowhere near our maximum potential. We simply practiced to the point where we could comfortably defeat all opposition.

 

So what now? There isn't much new blood coming in and since you are at a point where you can comfortably defeat all opposition within Hawken there doesn't seem much challenge left for Omni. I would say your "best" opposition from long ago already left the game and those that still played Hawken joined you or eventually quit due to the game being run into the ground by ADH. Aside from fighting each other over and over again or fighting opponents that you said you can comfortably defeat at nowhere near your maximum potential over and over again what else is left? IMO as things are now your just there to be the ones to beat for Hawken players, not helping or hurting the Hawken community but just there, a king upon a small hill. I'm saying this with no disrespect but it made me wonder, what now?

Edited by Sylhiri, 12 February 2016 - 03:51 PM.

[Nept]

 

Omni will be breaking from Hawken for awhile, so opponents and detractors (They exist!  I know, I'm surprised too) can rest easier.  Of course, our members with TPG positions will continue to fulfill their obligations.

[Dew]

Hahaha...

So, how much money did omni make with online gaming

Win any tournaments that are worth mentioning?

 

I love idiot responses like this.

 

Some people compete because they find COMPETITION FUN. WEIRD CONCEPT, RIGHT? They might also find competing against people who challenge them to be fun. They might also find improving and then beating the people who challenge them to be fun! Money might have absolutely nothing to do with it!

 

To be honest, HAWKEN in a competitive environment is super fuzzing fun and it's honestly one of the biggest gaming tragedies of this decade that the game got run into the ground by a terrible publisher and never really gained a following.

Edited by Dew, 12 February 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[Onebullit]

I love idiot responses like this.

You are the idiot dude, mine was a question.

Most of your responses on the forum are idiotic.

[Nept]

Irony.