248 replies to this topic

[Silverfire]

To reiterate, I am incredibly, incredibly disappointed in Reloaded Games in seemingly failing to consult the community, or at the very least, demonstrably knowledgeable players and community members in regards to balance changes.  Game direction and mech changes and whatever, yeah, that's the devs' side of things.  Balance though, we're the ones playing it.  Ask us about it. Doesn't even have to a member of the high MMR cabal.  Just a player who's been around for a while.  And yet I find that Reloaded has failed completely in that regard.

Edited by Silverfire, 18 June 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[LadyTiggs]

 

Will we ever be able to sell or just delete mechs we don't want anymore?

 

Mechs can be deleted by renaming them to delete me and contacting support. 

 

 
So lets say Billy the xbox player buys a scout is his scout locked into the heat cannon? Where as my scout can use all primaries?

 

Xbox players won't be playing PC players until we can get everything in sync so no. You'll be playing with PC players, little Billy won't be. 

 

 

Tiggs,

 

I'll sign NDA and be a feedback impression tester.  Pls PM me.

 

Contact support. 

 

This is a public service announcement that I'll be assuming Hawken's public relations outside these forums starting Monday as Reloaded is clearly insufficiently staffed and trained to handle this.

 

Further posts will be forthcoming.

 

I think we're staffed fine, but thanks for the vote of confidence there. 

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Contact support. 

 

Yes, done.

Edited by Lunatic, 18 June 2016 - 07:01 PM.

[Analysis]

Mechs you've already purchased will retain their 3 weapons. Also Assault is going to become the next Cupcake. 

 

I'm asking if I play Hawken on Xbox will I be able to get my scout with flak back. Currently the scout has heat only based on the guide and the above QA mentions one primary per mech. So will another mech have a flak/tow and the fuel ability or will this combo be forever lost to the general public. I understand that my scout on PC won't change.

[Silverfire]

I'm asking if I play Hawken on Xbox will I be able to get my scout with flak back. Currently the scout has heat only based on the guide and the above QA mentions one primary per mech. So will another mech have a flak/tow and the fuel ability or will this combo be forever lost to the general public. I understand that my scout on PC won't change.

 

From what I've read and from what I understand from Tiggs' post, anything purchased post-changes will be the different stuff.  So that means if you get a Scout on Xbox, it will be the "new" Scout.

[LadyTiggs]

To reiterate, I am incredibly, incredibly disappointed in Reloaded Games in seemingly failing to consult the community, or at the very least, demonstrably knowledgeable players and community members in regards to balance changes.  Game direction and mech changes and whatever, yeah, that's the devs' side of things.  Balance though, we're the ones playing it.  Ask us about it. Doesn't even have to a member of the high MMR cabal.  Just a player who's been around for a while.  And yet I find that Reloaded has failed completely in that regard.

 

We weren't able to discuss anything with anyone as per contractual agreements 

[Analysis]

From what I've read and from what I understand from Tiggs' post, anything purchased post-changes will be the different stuff.  So that means if you get a Scout on Xbox, it will be the "new" Scout.

 

Let me try this again since some misunderstanding is still occurring.

 

Currently a PC scout can be equipped with mini-flak, flak, or HEAT with the sole secondary being the TOW. I fully understand that a leveled up PC scout will have access to the three weapon variants.

 

I understand that the "new" scout might only be HEAT/TOW, but what about the other combinations will there be a scout flak/mini-flak with TOW be released as two different mechs? Are they going to introduce mech variants which would be the same as a PC mech, but you only have access to one of the primaries.

[teeth_03]

We weren't able to discuss anything with anyone as per contractual agreements

But now that the cat is out of the bag, how do you feel about discussing the specifics on the mech loadouts you guys intend to use (with mech specs) and maybe the "experts" here could post their thoughts on them.

I would create a new forum section maybe called "Balancing" or "New Hawken Tawken"

This is of course assuming an early beta test is out of the question.

[DieselCat]

Immediate comments and concerns:
 

 

And for the elephant in the room, especially with the changes to the vanguard... What about the inititive vanguard (AKA cupcake)? Will that suffer the same changes or is it going to be left alone and still not available as it was originally intended?

 

Damn !....Don't mess with my Cupcake 

[crockrocket]

Still reading.... Reserving for after

 

     ?

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 18 June 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[War_MachineXL]

Will there be a beta for the PS4 version before launch? If so any news about when that might be available?


Also when can we hope for a solid release date for the console versions? I have seen anywhere from 2 weeks to the end of August but most sites reported it as later this month after your E3 show.


 

[capnjosh]

Edit:

Will we ever be able to sell or just delete mechs we don't want anymore?

 

 

We really want that.  It'll take some significant new services work, client work, and some "internal" SDK work, in addition to some database work.  I had started to push for that until our engineering guys said, "Dude, it's actually a huge project, unfortunately."

 

It's gonna happen though someday.  I just makes sense.

[teeth_03]

Well, I don't think you have to worry about too many of us wanting to delete mechs now anyway.

[capnjosh]

To reiterate, I am incredibly, incredibly disappointed in Reloaded Games in seemingly failing to consult the community, or at the very least, demonstrably knowledgeable players and community members in regards to balance changes.  Game direction and mech changes and whatever, yeah, that's the devs' side of things.  Balance though, we're the ones playing it.  Ask us about it. Doesn't even have to a member of the high MMR cabal.  Just a player who's been around for a while.  And yet I find that Reloaded has failed completely in that regard.

 

In retrospect it may have been better to publicly pull in more of the vets, get the NDA, explain as much of the business side, design side, and engineering constraints, and then work out the best path forward.

 

Let's keep talking; I don't consider this topic dead.

[crockrocket]

Banned from TPG out of principle.

 

G2 exception also abolished 

[Shade__]

G2 exception also abolished 

we don't know if the Neif is G2 yet.

[crockrocket]

we don't know if the Neif is G2 yet.

 

Have you seen the G2P? Abolished

[Hecatoncheires]

Continuing my question on voice chat, will voice chat be fixed for the PC version in the near future?

Edited by Hecatoncheires, 18 June 2016 - 09:50 PM.

[DM30]

Quite an interesting post. Some of my worries about radical changes in this new version are eased a bit, but others remain strong. Vertical progression is a new one (or a returning old one), but my opinion on that has already been nicely covered by other members. The other primary one for me is the "one primary per mech" news, though.

 

There have been multiple posts over the life of this game from players saying they wanted MORE meaningful customization for their mechs. Even after two utterly failed attempts at customization trees, people still kept bringing them up in the suggestions forum because players wanted to adjust their mechs to suit their own playstyles. In the absence of tuning points/trees, alternate primary weapons were THE way to do that. Different primaries could radically change the playstyle for a single mech, more than item or internals ever could. A HEAT infil with an Armor Fusor or an EMP still plays largely the same as one with a Power Surger or Detonator. An AR Infil plays very differently from both of those.

 

And now that's gone? So, instead of people getting what they repeatedly asked for with more functional customization in the game, they instead get tied to a single play-style per mech? Hell, one specific suggestion I saw multiple times from people unfamiliar with Hawken's early history was for the ability to put ANY primary weapon on their mech! Now, that ability was scrapped before even the closed betas for a reason, BUT it does highlight my point: This change is the exact opposite of what was consistently being asked for!

 

I hope there are plans to radically expand on item and internal options in light of this, because otherwise I'm afraid that this is going to negatively affect the game's ability to hold on to players' interest for an extended length of time.

 

I do think this new build has potential. I'm reserving my judgment for when I can actually play with these changes and see them first hand. Until then, though, I do still have my concerns.

Edited by DM30, 18 June 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[OmegaNull]

Hm... I need more information. I am both happy and afraid of what is to come. 

[Hyginos]

Mechs now only have one primary, one secondary weapon. We anticipate this functionality to carry over to PC as well.  However, the goal is to support the 3-primary weapons feature for mechs that already were owned.

It is concerning that no one brought this up as a balance issue at RLD. I would honestly rather you remove the old mech's weapon options than potentially allow some players access to more powerful weapon combos simply for having been around longer.
 
What I read this as is someone will be able to keep a lot of mechs/weapon combos that are very strong (and you have said you don't want to change balance much) and use them with players who do not have access to those mech/weapon combos. Not only that, but there are a LOT of combos that are strong to very strong but will not be available:

• All three current versions of gren
• flak scout
• ar/heat infil
• Hawkins brawler
• miniflak/smc vanguard
• ar/vulcan zerk
• slug reaper
• T32 raider (And you want to take away EOC raider? You monsters!)
• Assault in all forms, which is now an objectively more powerful version of its modern equivalent that is only available to legacy players
• Vulcan CRT, and to a lesser degree SMC
• AR bruiser
• RPR tech

If some of these mechs are being released as "new" mechs under different names to hit your 30 mech promises, that's somewhere between misleading and downright scummy. Additionally, I see that you don't want to change balance much, and that you also want to fundamentally change how mech load outs work as well as completely rework a few classes. I submit to you that doing so is very unlikely to not change balance much.
 
As for G2 as premium/upgrade mechs (even if they only looks that way): Do we even have to explain why this is an awful idea? fuzzy bunnyng seriously?
 
 
EDIT:
 

I think we're staffed fine, but thanks for the vote of confidence there.

You've earned it.
 

From the time we started the project we have been silently reading - and listening - to the playerbase behind the scenes.

And that lead you to add vertical progression, turret modes, and more scanners? You need to fire whoever was in charge of pulling info from the forums.

Edited by Hyginos, 18 June 2016 - 10:23 PM.

[teeth_03]

Maybe what they should do (if they don't let us pick the primary weapon) is to let us pick the *Ability* of the Mech.

Perhaps there could be some limitations, mainly between the classes, but I think we could achieve the same effect as what we have now, just not cosmetically.

The Ability slot could be a module that you can buy just like Items and Internals.

[Nightfirebolt]

 

f you're still upset and want to discuss things further with CapnJosh, I'll be scheduling 15 minute interviews with him. You'll need to sign an NDA and provide a Government ID.  Just contact support with Interview request and I'll start the ball rolling on that.

 

Are Canadian players allowed to do this too?

[Nept]

In retrospect it may have been better to publicly pull in more of the vets, get the NDA, explain as much of the business side, design side, and engineering constraints, and then work out the best path forward.

 

Let's keep talking; I don't consider this topic dead.

 

I suggest pulling in vets in accordance with their muscularity.

[peacecraftSLD]

Thanks for answering my questions

[Sigil_]

I'm mostly concerned over how 'legacy' mechs and loadouts will be handled. Milkshake also has an excellent point above regarding stripping options from current mechs and selling them as new ones, and locking current combinations away from new players. While I appreciate that Reloaded isn't going to be pulling apart our garages, it's going to create a nightmare for balancing everything since we'll be keeping our legacy mechs with three primaries. Some of which could be vastly superior to their new single-weapon counterparts, customization aside. If the new B3 AR Vanguard has a similar punch to the current Vulcan Vanguard, nobody who can use their legacy Vulcan Vanguard is going to bother with the new one because of the higher heat output on the B3 AR.

 

That's also going to mess with the Incinerator, which, while the PPA is objectively the best weapon, the BBY is an easy to use introduction to the class and the M4MA has a weird niche mechanic that is fun, if not that great. Giving the new Incinerator the BBY or the M4MA is going to gut its damage potential compared to the legacy PPA version. Giving it only the PPA is going to make the learning curve on the mech steep, but is probably the only way to keep it competitive.

 

I'm also skeptical how well the 'new' Assault, Dual Seeker Neif and Dual Miniflak Charge are going to stack up. G2-Assault is fairly weak competitively because it lacks burst damage and the ability to corner. Additionally, with the new Assault moving into the current G2-Assault's role, where will the new G2-Assault go? Back to the regular AR-TOW loadout of the current Assault?

 

The Neif is going to be extremely niche because of the combination of a slow fire rate sustain weapon with a slow projectile, and it's flimsy A-Class frame. Seekers are a terrible weapon for an A-Class because they are easily avoided, they require Line of Sight to work and they also generate a lot of heat.

 

Furthermore, there is a reason that the Scout rarely uses the Miniflak Cannon. It's partially because of high heat and poor range, but it also requires you to be in the open where you can't abuse cover and burst damage as well. Despite the higher DPS, it loses the health race against any other non A-Class. The Charge had better have the old iteration of the Bruiser's ability with the longer activation time and lower reduction to keep it alive while in combat, otherwise it's going to get shredded the same way the Scout does. Or corner played the way the current G2-Assault does, but with less health.

 

Berserker can get away with being sustain because of it's TOW, high air speed, and high (for an A-Class) armor. AM-SAR Reaper uses range and has decent burst with it's KE-Sabot. AR Infiltrator has its cloak, some range and the Grenade Launcher. I.E., 'sustain' A-Classes work because they have some burst.

 

Pure sustain does not work in Hawken. You will get kited and corner played to death by mechs with burst options.

[Epsilon_Knight]

Greatly concerned with making a G2 counterpart to every class, and making it flat-out better.  Hawken is a game of side-grades.  We unlock options right now, not so much power.  Creating objectively better things means new players are at a disadvantage in terms of both skill AND having inferior gear.  That works for some MMOs, not so much arena shooters.

 

Having a segmented playerbase, where some people have access to weapons and mech torso "camouflage" that will never be available to others, seems like a bad idea.  How fair do you think it will feel to a new players who get wrecked by vets that have loadouts that can never be obtained?  How do you think new players who pay to obtain superior mechs (as Tiggs implied) will take it when their objectively-better purchase fails them versus things they can never have?

 

" The only choice in this situation is to try to make significant enough changes to the design in the hopes that users will find it "stickier" and find it more enjoyable to spend money on it.  The line we had to toe was that between making sure every purchase was satisfying vs purchases provide too much of a competitive advantage.  Previously, the universal feedback was that when you made a purchase you really could not tell that it made much of a difference.  "

 

There was a huge difference between EOC and T32!  Or between Flak and Vulcan and SA-Hawkins!  Or buying any mech and comparing it to any other mech!  But you mean that these purchases didn't offer a significant competitive advantage?  If that is correct, then I'm very worried about the direction of the game.  Paying to be outright better will decimate a playerbase.

 

" Quite simply put, the Hawken design did not generate enough revenue to sustain ongoing development. "

 

I'm pretty sure the game's design isn't what killed it the first time.  I'm pretty sure it was Meteor's total mismanagement of money.  Once the game lost its devs and began to stagnate, sitting in forever-beta on Steam with no advertising, it was pretty much bound to lose any playerbase that could have sufficiently supported it.  I don't think the core gameplay and horizontal progression with cosmetics and early unlocks are what killed it.  But I'm not a developer.

 

 

I'm really worried about bald-faced vertical progression, the implication of p2w, and segmenting your playerbase into Beta and Second Class users. 

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 18 June 2016 - 10:51 PM.

[Onebullit]

 

Edit:

Will we ever be able to sell or just delete mechs we don't want anymore?

 

 

We really want that.  It'll take some significant new services work, client work, and some "internal" SDK work, in addition to some database work.  I had started to push for that until our engineering guys said, "Dude, it's actually a huge project, unfortunately."

 

It's gonna happen though someday.  I just makes sense.

 

 

Thanks for answering that.

[Guns_N_Rozer]

so Hawken going to get new UI with DX11 , will be there any official driver support from Nvidia or AMD since the Driver Optimization is so poor .thanks for all the Q&A .

 

Edit : Every Update bring something to nerf Scout , this time 

Edited by (KDR) Guns_N_Rozer, 19 June 2016 - 12:38 AM.

[devotion]

In retrospect it may have been better to publicly pull in more of the vets, get the NDA, explain as much of the business side, design side, and engineering constraints, and then work out the best path forward.

 

Let's keep talking; I don't consider this topic dead.

my door is always open if you'd like to discuss balance.

 

https://hawken.herok...m/user/devotion

 

https://hawken.herok...m/user/notvideo

[CrimsonKaim]

Exciting news. Dual seeker A-Class? Noobtube. Now we need countermeasures agains tradar and seeker projectiles. 

 

 

I am really statisfied by the amount of questions answers but also concerned about "PC version to be largely untouched" part.

[DemitronPrime]

Hey Tiggs...

 

Here is one idea, you already slipped us a few pics....

 

Why not just lay the nutts on the table, drop us some images of the new mechs, show us how our old mechs will be broken...

 

for example... you are taking the grenade launcher of the grenadier and putting a bear on the vanguard...

 

two of my main mechs slaughtered in that action....

 

I know that in the older hawken you could change primary AND secondary... tell me... is this coming back

what is this mech tree??

 

is this like the old system of tuning points? IS this PAY ONLY ACCESS?

 

Easy my worried mind...

 

as for the changed to cosmetics...

 

--- this seems counter productive --

" we arent making enough money so we are gonna cut down the number of purchasable options for mechs by 75% by saying you cant put a pred chass on an assault anymore.... "

 

I mean my mathematics says, one mech has 4 options for chass each is 72 cred each, that would mean you have a limited income...

the same mech has existing options + new options (gold parts) this would INCREASE the possible income made off each mech.....

 

I dont mean to sound like i have little faith in these changes...

but well, i have little faith in these changes....

 

many of us have been playing this game for years... and though some change maybe good, some changes just seem almost spiteful....

 

what is the harm in relasing MORE promo images to the already playing PC hawken community? much liekt he images you have already show us, maybe a thread that has ALL the proposed new mechs showin so that we can communicate WITH the dev team and each other...

 

every since we as a whole have seen the direction hawken is head we are either angry or terrified...

 

easy way to fix that is remove the fair and show us there is no reason to be angry by showing us the goods....

 

LadyTiggs, on 19 Jun 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

if you're still upset and want to discuss things further with CapnJosh, I'll be scheduling 15 minute interviews with him. You'll need to sign an NDA and provide a Government ID.  Just contact support with Interview request and I'll start the ball rolling on that.

What about NZ players? can I have an interview with josh thanks.... I got a few good questions to throw

Edited by -TDM- Demitron-Prime, 19 June 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[6ixxer]

Abilities aside, is there any mech with dual heat cannons?
One of my suggestions threads revolved around dual heat.

[Rainbow_Sheep]

Have sticky textures and uneven ground surfaces been fixed?
We have performed a number of passes on maps to alleviate the missing/spotty textures that may appear

THE FUTURE IS NOW, THANKS TO SCIENCE

[MomOw]

It is concerning that no one brought this up as a balance issue at RLD. I would honestly rather you remove the old mech's weapon options than potentially allow some players access to more powerful weapon combos simply for having been around longer.
 
What I read this as is someone will be able to keep a lot of mechs/weapon combos that are very strong (and you have said you don't want to change balance much) and use them with players who do not have access to those mech/weapon combos. Not only that, but there are a LOT of combos that are strong to very strong but will not be available:

• All three current versions of gren
• flak scout
• ar/heat infil
• Hawkins brawler
• miniflak/smc vanguard
• ar/vulcan zerk
• slug reaper
• T32 raider (And you want to take away EOC raider? You monsters!)
• Assault in all forms, which is now an objectively more powerful version of its modern equivalent that is only available to legacy players
• Vulcan CRT, and to a lesser degree SMC
• AR bruiser
• RPR tech

If some of these mechs are being released as "new" mechs under different names to hit your 30 mech promises, that's somewhere between misleading and downright scummy. Additionally, I see that you don't want to change balance much, and that you also want to fundamentally change how mech load outs work as well as completely rework a few classes. I submit to you that doing so is very unlikely to not change balance much.
 
As for G2 as premium/upgrade mechs (even if they only looks that way): Do we even have to explain why this is an awful idea? fuzzy bunnyng seriously?
 
 
EDIT:
 

You've earned it.
 

And that lead you to add vertical progression, turret modes, and more scanners? You need to fire whoever was in charge of pulling info from the forums.

 

Old mech should not be accessible in "normal games", but rather in private servers with "mod" or special "playground" servers.

Otherwise it could ruin the balance the new dev team will try to set-up.

[claisolais]

It seems all those who wanted something unique for being here through the Great Silence 2 will get their entire garage of cosmetics. I'm off to go get new chassis while i can.

About 200 (Over 300 actually) USD for full mech chassis (torso). Although Im still questioning about how will the balance changes...considering old mechs have great advantage(?). But I've been staring at my wallet since I finished reading this post..

 

Dont forget to buy all mech weapons while you still can. 

*UPDATE* NVM, it seems all pre-release purchased mech will have their weapon options, you might able to buy them later.

Edited by claisolais, 22 June 2016 - 03:08 PM.

[SS396]

 

If you're still upset and want to discuss things further with CapnJosh, I'll be scheduling 15 minute interviews with him. You'll need to sign an NDA and provide a Government ID.  Just contact support with Interview request and I'll start the ball rolling on that.

 

If you have any other questions just reply below and I'll try to get them in front of the team. 

 

Don't forget to have the lawyers include the little clause that mentioning that you even signed the NDA is bound by the NDA.  That way we'll nip that in the bud and it won't pollute the forums with the implied elitism that we experienced when the Hawken Advanced Battalion was created years ago.

 

Either way, having numerous versions of mechs that new players cannot purchase is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen in the write up.  It won't bode well when veterans hand new players their asses with them.  I can hear the cries and complaints now.  Either everyone needs to be limited to the same weapons, or they just need to be cosmetic changes or something but having legacy loadouts is just going to cause major issues with trying to balance things in the future.  My vote is to not change the loadouts of the current ingame mechs.

[PoopSlinger]

Things look shaky for TPG S4

[dorobo]

It seems all those who wanted something unique for being here through the Great Silence 2 will get their entire garage of cosmetics. I'm off to go get new chassis while i can.

 

We are now ELITES. yaaayyy...

 

Im in the process of making rev-gl grenadier video.. It's a hard mech to play and takes time to get better and it is good that way. I don't mind some balancing but taking grenade launcher away from it.. make it easy with OP turret mode..? Shame..  my vid gonna be obselete.

 

I don't mind things like double seeker a class. Bring all that new weird interesting stuff in! I was looking to that. But changes to whats there seem..

 

Classic hawken was great.. i think i had the most fun with hawken in alpha on untextured prosk with stunlock(some people will know) and bad pc crashing after each game.

 

Hawken was ruined previously by these.. high-level meetings across executives from a few different companies, board members, investors, etc.

Edited by dorobo, 19 June 2016 - 03:39 AM.

[Miscellaneous]

 

I'm insulted. 

 

We, as players, have been campaigning since the start of this damn game that vertical progression and items like the scanner are the exact OPPOSITE of what should be included in any game that hopes to ever have a competitive scene.

Edited by (KDR) Miscellaneous, 19 June 2016 - 03:19 AM.