70 replies to this topic

[Ezodev]

Hi. For the past few days, this problem is becoming more and more annoying. Population of Hawken is really low, but somehow there are still much more complete newbies than experienced players. If that stops, if they will all disappear, this game will be completely doomed(more than it already is).  And now look at this, for example: http://imgur.com/a/fKgmJ

 

What do we have here? Master_Blaster joined at the end, so he doesn't count. But anyway, two smurfs vs a bunch of newbies(and 1 smurf, but he's not playing seriously[which is another problem]). And I got assigned with the smurfs. My score is bad, but that's because I spent most of the match yelling at them instead of playing. It would be even worse if I didn't do that.

 

Look at the matchmaking. This is ridiculous.

 

I believe that if this will continue for a significant period of time, newbs will really quit.

 

Devs. Can't you improve mmr-assignment algorithm a bit? Instead of a system where you increase/decrease mmr a little bit after every match, maybe do something like this exclusively on new accounts: after a match, look how well they did against their enemies. Then based on that, assign the mmr. For example, if a completely new account plays better than someone with 2K mmr... their mmr should be higher than 2k. Even after a single match.

 

It still doesn't solve the problem completely - dedicated smurf will feed for a few matches, and then start playing normally. But maybe it would help at least a little bit.

 

And smurfs, pls explain. Why? I'm sure you realize that it's a problem. You've spent thousands of hours in the game, you got bored and decided that you want to try taking it down before quitting? Or something like that? It's about the only explanation I can think of. Surely making a game easier for you while you're already at the top isn't fun for you? So it must be about destroying the game for fun or something.

Edited by Ezodev, 14 May 2017 - 11:16 AM.

[EM1O]

game will be completely doomed

 

take a drink!

looks like what you dropped into had a party team.

they smurf because there are only about 8 or 10 of the same people that the matchmaking lets them play against in the Gawd Tier in their main acct.  smurfing lets them play against anybody.  it's not going away, even with Steam linked sign-ins, as it only takes about 3 extra minutes to create a Steam smurf acct.

and suddenly their mmr drops by 1200 and the server browser lets them in.

this also works for bad players whose mmr drops into the 900-1000 bracket (heh: 1052 once upon a time when default was 1500).

[Rainbow_Sheep]

My score is bad, but that's because I spent most of the match yelling at them instead of playing. It would be even worse if I didn't do that.

 

hahah what

 

no seriously, what

[Epsilon_Knight]

take a drink!

looks like what you dropped into had a party team.

they smurf because there are only about 8 or 10 of the same people that the matchmaking lets them play against in the Gawd Tier in their main acct.  smurfing lets them play against anybody.  it's not going away, even with Steam linked sign-ins, as it only takes about 3 extra minutes to create a Steam smurf acct.

and suddenly their mmr drops by 1200 and the server browser lets them in.

this also works for bad players whose mmr drops into the 900-1000 bracket (heh: 1052 once upon a time when default was 1500).

 

This is no longer accurate.  Server browser will literally let anyone join games over a certain MMR.  A 3000 MMR player can join a game with 1740 SRD right from the browser.  And BEFORE THAT if you queued up, in 60 seconds you would be put in the "best fit" match even if it was a sever locked below your MMR.

 

Most smurfs these days either want to keep stats separate from their mains, want an amusing name, want to learn a new mech, or (unfortunately probably in the vast majority of cases) want to take a dump on players by abusing a low starting MMR (places them on more favorable teams, with more skilled players since their MMR is low), complete with underdog bonus that inflates their score by 50%.

 

Smurfing will probably drop quite a bit when the game relaunches, though.

[Gueber]

This is no longer accurate.  Server browser will literally let anyone join games over a certain MMR.  A 3000 MMR player can join a game with 1740 SRD right from the browser.  And BEFORE THAT if you queued up, in 60 seconds you would be put in the "best fit" match even if it was a sever locked below your MMR.

 

Most smurfs these days either want to keep stats separate from their mains, want an amusing name, want to learn a new mech, or (unfortunately probably in the vast majority of cases) want to take a dump on players by abusing a low starting MMR (places them on more favorable teams, with more skilled players since their MMR is low), complete with underdog bonus that inflates their score by 50%.

 

Smurfing will probably drop quite a bit when the game relaunches, though.

 

Nope, you can't join noob servers unless you are on a smurf or actually belong in that MMR range. Once a server is outside of a certain low skill range anyone can join. The problem is low skill players aren't pushed into those low skill servers (if there even is one going), because they can just select any random server they want, so they end up in high skill games when there might have been enough of them to make a server that's a closer match for them. Every time I try to play in a decent 2k+ MMR game it gets ruined by some 1100~1500 MMR player hopping in, feeding, and wondering why balance was so bad. It's just bad for everyone when people don't have to stay in their MMR range. Low skill players entering high skill games is just as bad as the high skill players joining low skill games. I hate to do it but server browser should probably be disabled and force queue people into the closest server to their MMR. The problem with that is it will make it difficult to just join a friends game when you want to, and that's not going to make Hawken fun or popular, but these constantly unbalanced matches aren't fun either.

[Ezodev]

>hahah what

 

>no seriously, what

 

I meant that matchmaking resulted in two teams, in one of which there were two smurfs and me, on another only 1 smurf(who wasn't even playing seriously). I've said that to explain why my score wasn't high; it's still absurd that I was in the same team as PigQueen and JungleBoy against other team. I'm about 2080 MMR, through really it should be ~~2150 or higher - but I've dropped from that in the past few days, since PigQueen appeared.

 

@EM10: It was not a party, I'm pretty sure. On the next match JungleBoy was on a different team.

 

@Epsilon_Knight: maybe it will. Votekick will probably help. Although I'm worrying votekick will bring another set of problems, like newbies thinking you're cheating and therefore kicking you off the server. 

Edited by Ezodev, 14 May 2017 - 12:51 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Gueb,

 

I don't want to play on some maps, or with some people.  I like the server browser.

 

EM10,

 

I can't join matches whose quality rating is less than 75.  75-79 is two-star; above 79 is three-star.  There are many two-star matches I cannot join, and the server browser will not show me some really low-quality matches.

 

OP,

 

The matchmaker shoves me into EU occasionally, when I can't find a match in NA.  It's not pretty when that happens, EU has some serious skill gap between new and Gawd-Tier.

[Epsilon_Knight]

Nope, you can't join noob servers unless you are on a smurf or actually belong in that MMR range. Once a server is outside of a certain low skill range anyone can join. 

 

Server browser will literally let anyone join games over a certain MMR.  A 3000 MMR player can join a game with 1740 SRD right from the browser.  And BEFORE THAT if you queued up, in 60 seconds you would be put in the "best fit" match even if it was a sever locked below your MMR.

 

Gueber, mah boi.  Reading comprehension.  Pls.

 

 

The problem is low skill players aren't pushed into those low skill servers (if there even is one going), because they can just select any random server they want, so they end up in high skill games when there might have been enough of them to make a server that's a closer match for them. Every time I try to play in a decent 2k+ MMR game it gets ruined by some 1100~1500 MMR player hopping in, feeding, and wondering why balance was so bad. It's just bad for everyone when people don't have to stay in their MMR range.

 

 

This is true, low MMR players can always join UP.

 

Here's what CZero said on the topic:

 

 

Oh - one thing we are rolling out soon:

Matchmaking Range Adjustments, but with a MMR high/low-end cutoff.

You will be able to join servers that are x (number to be determined per platform) or higher MMR regardless of your individual matchmaking rating. We feel as though this adjustment will improve the experience for all players in Hawken as the playerbase is not big enough to support huge MMR differentials at this time. Please note that this will apply to the server browser and matchmaking queue, though you may encounter some issues joining servers that are below the cutoff through the server browser. This matchmaking update will be going live on XB1/PS4/PC and will simply �just happen�. So if you notice you can join more games, that�s why!

 

 

Now, we don't have published info on the actual cutoffs are, but they are VERY ALLOWING, judging from my experience being able to effortlessly join sub-1800 MMR games. There's no need to smurf anymore to get into games, like EM10 suggested.  Worst case scenario, you wait a few minutes for a slot to open up on a full server.  All the other reasons people smurf, yeah, those are still there.  As for brand new players being able to join up to any game, yeah it's unfortunate for most everyone.  If any ULTRA HIGH TIER CABAL players are still seeing zero games available (not just full), would love to see some current evidence.  But it appears that smurfs exist for reasons other than gaemz right now.

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 14 May 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[nepacaka]

Devs. Can't you improve mmr-assignment algorithm a bit? Instead of a system where you increase/decrease mmr a little bit after every match, maybe do something like this exclusively on new accounts: after a match, look how well they did against their enemies. Then based on that, assign the mmr. For example, if a completely new account plays better than someone with 2K mmr... their mmr should be higher than 2k. Even after a single match.

probably, good idea. imho, MMR must be floating, and player should can see/know his MMR from game menu. if talk about hawken like a "competitve game". if not - probably MMR system should be changed, and keep in a secret from player eyes. player shoudn't know his rating and shouldn't have ability to know/see it.
the second things which i always thinking, is separate ranking and pub, where ranked have a higher reward, but required high mmr, punishment if you leaving from match (like a time-ban for ranked maybe, if you leave several times in a row, or even if you reset you PC, and don't return in match after 1.5 min)

the problem is - you dan't any reason to play in hawken competitve, except your own desire. game not reward you with unique skins, or something else.
for example, it can be a some sort of "season", where you should play N games while week/month/days, and increase personal rating. 1-3 players with higher rating get a reward. (or maybe 1-2-3 place etc.), when season end, you rating is 0 again and you continue do the same again.
there is also can have two reating, team rating/ solo rating. (or clans, hehe)

there a lot of ideas to realize actually, but is probably required alot of coding. it is like creating a new game-mode, or change half of game.

 

Why?

bacoz.

[Amidatelion]

ITT: people refusing to accept that Reloaded made actual changes

[TheButtSatisfier]

ITT: people refusing to accept that Reloaded made actual changes

 

BRO THESE "CHANGES" YOU DESCRIBED AREN'T OBVIOUS TO ME SO THEREFORE THEY DON'T EXIST

[Ezodev]

Another examples, because why not: http://imgur.com/a/7wyS2

 

So, in the first ss, we see following teams:

 

- PigQueen the smurf, who is I guess at least 2500mmr

- me - 2100mmr

- DeathShadow54 who has 1200+ playtime, I'd guess his mmr should be something like 2200 at least(but he feeds or afk's often, so it's maybe lower)

- yahumada, probably also 2200+.

- ALVAH, but his ping makes him indistinguishable from newbies

- some newbie

 

In the other team, there is:

- _Master_Blaster_ - 2300 MMR atm

- 1uster - 2200 MMR

- Azansas - I'm surprised that he has 900h+ of playtime. My guess for mmr would be 1900-2000.

- Rest of people: newbs. There was one more player, but he was a newb too.

 

I believe it would be balanced, or slightly tilted towards _Master_Blaster_ team *if there wasn't PigQueen there*. But added 2500+ mmr player posing like dunno, 1900 one? ...made this match a disaster. Not quite like that 40-3 one, but still.

 

Next match:

 

PigQueen, me, DeathShadow and Heute against _Master_Blaster_, 1uster and yahumada. Peacenotwar doesn't count because he joined when a match was close to the end.

 

Heute is ANOTHER smurf. He's not god-tier, through. Some ~~2100, maybe slightly higher, fuzzy bunny who doesn't have already tenuous excuses other smurfs have like "I'm not able to play because my mmr is too high".

 

So, 2100, 2100, 2500+, 2200 against 2300, 2200, 2200. Maybe my lame mmr estimates are wrong, but look at the damned results.

 

 

When something like half of good players use smurfs, balance is highly improbable. If there aren't smurfs, then probability increases to something bearable. But when huge portion of mmr is simply hidden from the system, balanced matches turn into results like 40-20. And unbalanced matches turn into ridiculousness like that 40-3.

Edited by Ezodev, 14 May 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[Nilithium]

Can you call out people here? I have an inkling of a suspicion that Little_Bastard has much more history than his player page lets on.
http://hawken.heroku.../Little_Bastard
He has a 2.0+ K/D with tons of assists, and seems to main Scout so often it would make Prosk blush.
He's contributed to lopsided games where I'm both with and against him that create score disparities of 40/~10, with him having a score that's regularly 2.5x of his next highest teammate.
While I applaud his degree of skill, I'm not a fan of watching or receiving a cringe inducing curbstomp.

Edited by Nilithium, 14 May 2017 - 03:48 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Can you call out people here? I have an inkling of a suspicion that Little_Bastard has much more history than his player page lets on.
http://hawken.heroku.../Little_Bastard
He has a 2.0+ K/D with tons of assists, and seems to main Scout so often it would make Prosk blush.
He's contributed to lopsided games where I'm both with and against him that create score disparities of 40/~10, with him having a score that's regularly 2.5x of his next highest teammate.
While I applaud his degree of skill, I'm not a fan of watching or receiving a cringe inducing curbstomp.

 

No, you can't call people out here.

 

Little_Bastard has 300 or so hours with a 2.62 k/d and a 64.2% win average. His MMR is 2300+.  He plays in matches where the server browser/star-rating system lets him in, and plays in EU when the only matches open are there.  Most of those matches are 1970MMR (by Scrimmy SRD) or higher.  He mains Scout because he likes it.  He hasn't been smurf-stomping in quite some time; he's been playing Little_Bastard since before Christmas, pretty much exclusively.

 

He gets those scores against some of the better players in the game, and I honestly don't think he even notices feeders dying around him when he's fighting hard - you'll notice in games where the autobalance system is engaged, he's often times teamed with ALL of the weakest players and has to face all of the strongest ones in the server.  This happens to him a lot, and if you think about it, explains why his score is often 2.5x his closest teammate.  I think he's subject to all of the same hit-registration and rubberband as the rest of us are; it's a wonder he keeps playing the game.  He must really love it.

 

I'm pretty sure he'll sit when the teams are numerically uneven, and he will offer critique and advice. Sometimes people don't want to hear it, though.

 

Between you and me, I think he likes hearing people whine about his Scout.  I think he REALLY likes it when people kvetch about his skill - especially when he was the one to start the server, and they join it, playing above their level.

 

----------------------------

 

Alt:  account played at one's natural MMR, close to one's natural MMR, against a population who knows the alt and main identity.

 

Smurf: (short for smurf-stomper) account created expressly to stomp on newb players, played far below one's natural MMR, in order to get into servers below one's natural MMR, aganst a population who is ignorant of the identity of the smurf-stomper.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 14 May 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[CZeroFive]

Smurfing is only a problem when:

 

1) The playerbase is so small that you run into the same people repeatedly.

2) The MMR values are artificially inflated for a new player's first 10 matches to a specific value and thus do not accurately represent a players' actual skill level.

3) The MMR values are so inflated as a result of 1) and 2), causing new players to face smurfs for their first 10 matches.

4) The MMR values do not reset, thus causing inflation to the point where smurfing is needed because you cannot play balanced matches at higher MMR values.

5) It is easy for a new smurf to get into the game and start playing against other players with maximum internals for the Assault.

 

All of the above points are being addressed soon. Here is what we are doing in the next update (and subsequently the relaunch) to address the issues:

 

1) The PC relaunch will give us a spike in playerbase and hopefully they will stick around given the changes to the game.

2) The MMR values will no longer be artificially inflated for players in their first 10 matches.

3) New players will play specially-crafted Bots TDM matches that teach them how to play the game, with tips appearing on the screen, instead of being forced to play VR training and then have no clue what to do after the VR training mode is finished.

4) MMR as you all know it is going to change. We hope to have a blogpost on this feature soon.

5) The first-time user experience is going to be required for all new players and the new accounts will not be bombarded with achievement-based HC, thus providing a smurf deterrent.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Here is what we are doing in the next update (and subsequently the relaunch) to address the issues:

4) MMR as you all know it is going to change. We hope to have a blogpost on this feature soon.

5) The first-time user experience is going to be required for all new players and the new accounts will not be bombarded with achievement-based HC, thus providing a smurf deterrent.

 

Finally, and very cool.

 

I got a hint of this from a former teammate; he can tell you I am pretty statistically-savvy. Would you want to discuss MMR systems at some point?  I am usually in bed when Discord and IRC are hopping, though, I'm old.

[Merl61]

 He gets those scores against some of the better players in the game

That's why you leave every game with a player higher level than you right?

[CZeroFive]

Finally, and very cool.

 

I got a hint of this from a former teammate; he can tell you I am pretty statistically-savvy. Would you want to discuss MMR systems at some point?  I am usually in bed when Discord and IRC are hopping, though, I'm old.

 

We'd like to keep things open on these forums for everyone to see. It's only fair that everyone gets a say in everything.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

That's why you leave every game with a player higher level than you right?

 

Nope.  There are many players [edited names] you can ask to verify this, but you won't.  I leave after matches are done when the next map is one of Bunker, Wreckage, or Lost Eco.  Sometimes I leave when I have a teleconference, sometimes my wife or kids want me to do something.

 

I play pretty much every day, and I take some serious MMR losses from time to time.  I HAVE to be playing players same level or better than me to get back to 2300 so fast, so there is your proof.

 

There is also the possibility that I just don't like to be in the same virtual room with you, Merl.

 

We'd like to keep things open on these forums for everyone to see. It's only fair that everyone gets a say in everything.

 

Can't wait to see the proposal, thanks.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 14 May 2017 - 05:24 PM.

[6ixxer]

4) MMR as you all know it is going to change. We hope to have a blogpost on this feature soon.

5) The first-time user experience is going to be required for all new players and the new accounts will not be bombarded with achievement-based HC, thus providing a smurf deterrent.

Part of me wants all the MMRs reset. New MMR system is the right time to do it.
Some people will be butthurt about it, but if they are as good as their MMR suggested, they will be back there in no time.

I also like to think that games could be in grades rather than the confusing 3 star system.
People get to know if they are good enough for a particular grade.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Can you call out people here? I have an inkling of a suspicion that Little_Bastard has much more history than his player page lets on.
http://hawken.heroku.../Little_Bastard
He has a 2.0+ K/D with tons of assists, and seems to main Scout so often it would make Prosk blush.
He's contributed to lopsided games where I'm both with and against him that create score disparities of 40/~10, with him having a score that's regularly 2.5x of his next highest teammate.
While I applaud his degree of skill, I'm not a fan of watching or receiving a cringe inducing curbstomp.

 

Little Bastard enjoys eating corsair rounds and being bullied by high speed fowl. There is nothing to fear here... ;) A tip for when he starts jumping and air compressing all over the map, shoot him in the face: 

 

[Morquedeas]

Smurfing is only a problem when:

 

1) The playerbase is so small that you run into the same people repeatedly.

2) The MMR values are artificially inflated for a new player's first 10 matches to a specific value and thus do not accurately represent a players' actual skill level.

3) The MMR values are so inflated as a result of 1) and 2), causing new players to face smurfs for their first 10 matches.

4) The MMR values do not reset, thus causing inflation to the point where smurfing is needed because you cannot play balanced matches at higher MMR values.

5) It is easy for a new smurf to get into the game and start playing against other players with maximum internals for the Assault.

 

All of the above points are being addressed soon. Here is what we are doing in the next update (and subsequently the relaunch) to address the issues:

 

1) The PC relaunch will give us a spike in playerbase and hopefully they will stick around given the changes to the game.

2) The MMR values will no longer be artificially inflated for players in their first 10 matches.

3) New players will play specially-crafted Bots TDM matches that teach them how to play the game, with tips appearing on the screen, instead of being forced to play VR training and then have no clue what to do after the VR training mode is finished.

4) MMR as you all know it is going to change. We hope to have a blogpost on this feature soon.

5) The first-time user experience is going to be required for all new players and the new accounts will not be bombarded with achievement-based HC, thus providing a smurf deterrent.

 

This all sounds good, the only thing that concerns me is the MMR changes.

 

I think now would be an important time to point out one of my favorite things about Hawken; mmr changes depends on your match score relative to other players in the lobby, rather than being calculated purely off win/loss like many other games.  Whereas many games using the later method (moba's for example) become insanely frustrating when you have poor teammates that make winning impossible, Hawken has always rewarded me for playing well.  This goes a long way in preventing the feeling that a game was a complete waste of my time when I lose.

 

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, for example joining a game late with people at your skill level usually results in mmr loss as you simply can't compete with the score head-start they have from being in the match from the start, but it's a lot better than many other games.  In Hawken, I don't feel like I'm being punished for teamates doing poorly, I'm hoping this doesn't get changed.

[coldform]

at the time of this post, I had finished up a series of matches where the avg mmr was 1900 - not to far below my own MMR, and inside my "true" mmr rating.  the spread was 1400 to 2700. that is a HUGE difference in skill, and it usually leads to one side stomping the other side, and the losing side becomes a revolving door for ragequtters. I have also experienced a match where I have switched sides twice, and only lost because I couldn't close the score gap that I myself made quick enough. 

 

the problem is not so much smurfs, but the lack of solid players - both low and high skill level - willing to stick around in a server. rarely do I find smurfs actually throwing off my game.  we don't have enough folks playing the game right now, and it's something that will prolly be addressed once we get a patch.

[Ezodev]

the problem is not so much smurfs, but the lack of solid players - both low and high skill level - willing to stick around in a server. rarely do I find smurfs actually throwing off my game. 

 

 

This is another problem, yes. Players quitting OR JOINING mid-match. Enough of them, and it becomes unbalanced, because they join at random. If you have a balanced match, and then someone 2k+ joins one side, it will obviously become unbalanced. But this problem is unfixable, unless we will have higher playerbase.

 

 

This all sounds good, the only thing that concerns me is the MMR changes.

 

I think now would be an important time to point out one of my favorite things about Hawken; mmr changes depends on your match score relative to other players in the lobby, rather than being calculated purely off win/loss like many other games.

 

I doubt they would do something like that; it doesn't make any sense. Your contribution in team deathmatch to the team score should be something like 1/6th. Much more if your mmr is higher than average, and lower if it's lower. So that would make it not that much better than a coin toss. So mmy system would be useless.

 

2) The MMR values are artificially inflated for a new player's first 10 matches to a specific value and thus do not accurately represent a players' actual skill level.

3) The MMR values are so inflated as a result of 1) and 2), causing new players to face smurfs for their first 10 matches.

4) The MMR values do not reset, thus causing inflation to the point where smurfing is needed because you cannot play balanced matches at higher MMR values.

5) It is easy for a new smurf to get into the game and start playing against other players with maximum internals for the Assault.

 

About 2), 3) and 4): isn't smurfing a problem which results from a SMURF having DEFLATED mmr rating?  What you describe seems like a problem when new player joins to a match where there are many good players. But smurfs, because they have mmr which is much below their 'real' skill level/mmr, cause additional problems - because game thinks they are worse than they are, it assigns them with stronger teammates than it normally would. Which results in a extremely one-sided match.

 

About 5): Honestly, easy access to maximum internals, items etc. doesn't change that much. 2500+ mmr player smurfing will still beat 2300+ mmr player even without best equipment.

 

About your solution, I guess requiring new players to play some matches against bots will reduce amount of flustrated ones quitting the game. So maybe playerbase will start growing... which would help against smurfs, at least by diluting them.

[6ixxer]

the spread was 1400 to 2700. that is a HUGE difference in skill, and it usually leads to one side stomping the other side, and the losing side becomes a revolving door for ragequtters.

I see this all too often. and people quit the first game that this happens. when the server starts and isn't full, mmr balancing is ignored and it just alternates teams until full. They don't even give the server a chance to try balancing before they quit.
 

the problem is not so much smurfs, but the lack of solid players - both low and high skill level - willing to stick around in a server.

The suggestions of a bonus for staying in consecutive matches has been thrown out before.
Also, as harsh as it sounds, a background counter of people who abandon matches and after 2 consecutive abandonments they get locked out of entering human team matches for 5 min and can only play DM & botsTDM.

[Ezodev]

The suggestions of a bonus for staying in consecutive matches has been thrown out before.
 

 

Bonus in what? XP or ingame-currency would be useless. After something like 30-50h of playtime you have everything you need, probably on a few mechs. And most of the mechs. After that, you don't even look at the money/xp anymore. Paid currency bonus? Even small, it would probably be a disaster for the game's profitability. It's a miracle that game is somehow profitable enough with so small playerbase. I doubt newbies buy any skins. Maybe few exceptions. How many active vets are there overall? I guess something like 50 people in the EU. Rotation is small. How many of them buy skins?

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Little Bastard enjoys eating corsair rounds and being bullied by high speed fowl. There is nothing to fear here... ;) A tip for when he starts jumping and air compressing all over the map, shoot him in the face: 

 

 

 

He doesn't have an aircompressor.  He does generally devote some of his attention on the location of the battleturkey.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

He doesn't have an aircompressor. He does generally devote some of his attention on the location of the battleturkey.

I'm sure he does... hehehe :)

[wischatesjesus]

2) The MMR values are artificially inflated for a new player's first 10 matches to a specific value and thus do not accurately represent a players' actual skill level.

 

I feel like just removing underdog bonus would do a lot.

 

At the same time underdog bonus sends actual smurfs toward a high MMR faster than otherwise. Do you see a large number of players suddenly dropping in MMR after 10 matches?

 

I am also not convinced that removing the front loaded HC and rewards will do anything to smurfs. Not only will a high level player do plenty well in a low level server regardless of equipment, but smurfing is a phenomenon that predates RLD's changes to lessen grind and front load HC. They did it before, they'll do it after.

 

Players that want to stomp are going to smurf regardless, but by identifying and correcting other reasons why people smurf you might be able to make some progress.

[Ezodev]

>Players that want to stomp are going to smurf regardless

 

But by identyfying them and responding fast with IP bans their amount would be greatly reduced. Not everyone's IP is dynamically assigned, so side-stepping that would be hard for them. I doubt they'd buy VPN service just to smurf. IP bans don't need to be permanent, of course - we don't want these people smurfing, but removing them entirely would reduce already small population further...

 

Why won't devs hire some volunteer some Game Masters from the community? Make it all transparent(who was banned + video evidence of them being smurfs + their statistics + their main accounts if their IP was determined...), and there shouldn't be issues with abuse.

 

Also, would it be that hard to make 'save files'  with which we would be able to render accurate video with the whole match? Simply store all player inputs on the server, timestamps when server received them, + randomizer's seed. Then send that data(it would be few kilobytes at most, I think) to interested clients. Then we would be also able to identify all the cheaters - and it would be close to infallible. Added benefit would be to various promotional videos, montages... one could play plasticHawken and not lose performance due to video recording, and then render it at the arbitrary quality later. Reloaded would have all matches recorded, so they could pick something interesting for marketing. It could even offer more than simple video recording - switching between multpile mech's perspectives, or even free cam mode...

 

I believe that benefits vastly exceed costs. 

Edited by Ezodev, 15 May 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[wischatesjesus]

I believe that benefits vastly exceed costs.

 

I don't. At least not with regards to IP banning smurfs. This again:

 

 

While I agree that robust anti cheat, a demo system, and spectator modes would all be great, trying to go seek-and-destroy on serial smurfers isn't productive when you have under 100 concurrent players.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 

 

 

 

Why won't devs hire some volunteer some Game Masters from the community? Make it all transparent(who was banned + video evidence of them being smurfs + their statistics + their main accounts if their IP was determined...), and there shouldn't be issues with abuse.

 

...Then we would be also able to identify all the cheaters - and it would be close to infallible...

 

 

How in heaven's name are you equating smurfs with cheaters?  What would your army of game-police do with an incoming player from CS:GO who had incredible natural talent, I could name three really prominent examples?

[Ezodev]

How in heaven's name are you equating smurfs with cheaters?  What would your army of game-police do with an incoming player from CS:GO who had incredible natural talent, I could name three really prominent examples?

 

I'm not equating smurfs with cheaters, that was a side point. Sorry for the resulting confusion.

 

As for incredible talent transferrable from other games... isn't Hawken pretty specific? Turncap, emphasis on movement. I really doubt there are players who would perform at 2k+ levels during their first or second match, while they don't even know the maps.

 

Also, as I said, some smurfs could be discovered by using the same IP on their main and alt accounts.

Edited by Ezodev, 15 May 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[Amidatelion]

I'm not equating smurfs with cheaters, that was a side point. Sorry for the resulting confusion.

As for incredible talent transferrable from other games... isn't Hawken pretty specific? Turncap, emphasis on movement. I really doubt there are players who would perform at 2k+ levels during their first or second match, while they don't even know the maps.

Also, as I said, some smurfs could be discovered by using the same IP on their main and alt accounts.

ISPs rotate IPs so often now that's really time intensive without a dedicated team/scripter.

I had a 200-line flat file of problematic users for the TS that resolved to like 6 people's IPs.

And no, people with good aim practicess and mechanical skill will inherently adjust better to Hawken's unique gameplay, because at the end of the day damage/HP is king. See: Woods13, devotion, etc.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

 

 

But by identyfying them and responding fast with IP bans their amount would be greatly reduced.

 

 

 

 

Why would a developer of a free-to-play game make it so dedicated players could only have one account?  I'd guess a fairly significant portion of Hawken's revenues to this point have come from the "whales" and their multiple accounts.  It would beyond stupid for the devs to change that.

 

What they need to do, and which CZero5 has outlined the plan above, is to make it so balance issues at the start of a new account don't create the sort of ridiculousness you have pointed out in this thread.  There's really not much more to it than that.

[Sp3ctrr]

Drink ?

 

Drink.

[GalaxyRadio]

No, you can't call people out here.

 

Little_Bastard has 300 or so hours with a 2.62 k/d and a 64.2% win average. His MMR is 2300+.  He plays in matches where the server browser/star-rating system lets him in, and plays in EU when the only matches open are there.  Most of those matches are 1970MMR (by Scrimmy SRD) or higher.  He mains Scout because he likes it.  He hasn't been smurf-stomping in quite some time; he's been playing Little_Bastard since before Christmas, pretty much exclusively.

 

He gets those scores against some of the better players in the game, and I honestly don't think he even notices feeders dying around him when he's fighting hard - you'll notice in games where the autobalance system is engaged, he's often times teamed with ALL of the weakest players and has to face all of the strongest ones in the server.  This happens to him a lot, and if you think about it, explains why his score is often 2.5x his closest teammate.  I think he's subject to all of the same hit-registration and rubberband as the rest of us are; it's a wonder he keeps playing the game.  He must really love it.

 

I'm pretty sure he'll sit when the teams are numerically uneven, and he will offer critique and advice. Sometimes people don't want to hear it, though.

 

Between you and me, I think he likes hearing people whine about his Scout.  I think he REALLY likes it when people kvetch about his skill - especially when he was the one to start the server, and they join it, playing above their level.

 

----------------------------

 

Alt:  account played at one's natural MMR, close to one's natural MMR, against a population who knows the alt and main identity.

 

Smurf: (short for smurf-stomper) account created expressly to stomp on newb players, played far below one's natural MMR, in order to get into servers below one's natural MMR, aganst a population who is ignorant of the identity of the smurf-stomper.

 

I played once againts Little in US on a server where i was lucky to get ~120-130 Ping, so only 30% of my shots arent registered and little bit harder to use tow right. But with that ping againts such a good player was abysmal, and it was really bad for my team until middle of the match, because we had the whole time 1 less and less good players  (because my mmr is higher).

 

At the end, somehow i got used to that ping and wrecked him hard and we won with 1 mre point in the end 40/39, but it was hell for me. And Little didnt sit, but i can understand why he is not, watching this thread or normal actual situation in hawken population. It can't work, and its even worse if the small population is scattered around 10 servers, while having in all server matches like 3 VS 4 instead of nice 5 vs 5.

 

Now iam playing a different game, Paladins and found very nice and usefull mechanics, how paladins is dealing some problems.

 

- Assistance in killing the enemy leads to a kill insteadt of "Assistance" which gives rid. high amount of kills, but the player have a "good" feeling having more kills then death and feel satisfied in some way

- before you can play, you have to choose a server region and explained why

- if you queued and find a server, EVERY Players has to klick ready, before matchmaking starts, if only 1 of them dosnt click ready, youre in queued again and the one who didnt clicked ready gets a time penalty and can't play for 10min. The more often he is doing that, the bigger the penalty time is, it can even go beyond 60min

- there are some voice command structure in the game like retreat, thanks, attack middle, flank left/right etc. which is helpfull, if you can remember everything

- the first matches you play are againts bots, whatever mode you play to get into the game without being frustrated playing againts human player

- if a player has a disconnect etc. he will be replaced by a bot, but still playing with his name (which is confusing, because you don't know until you see how that bot is playing very stupid and never talk), but thats better then having 1 less player

 

This gives people, even if they did badly, to have some sort of satisfy with all the kills which were only assistance kills. 

 

And it works well so far, almost 90% of all matches i had were well balanced, even tough there is no TDM Mode, its more mission based, but this is so much more fun.

 

In Hawken i had the last months only mostly 80% of the time matches, where i was practically stomping the whole enemy team doing 50-75% of all kills for my team and still loosing, or being in a match, were my team was much stronger and i was sitting and of course bored to hell in a corner waiting for the match to end in hope for a better next one.

 

I hope hawken takes some of those mechanics into hawken, because it will motivate players much more. 

 

I play paladins until Hawken is coming big with relaunch and hopefull 5-10K players that stay around that, so everyone can be happy in his mmr range.

 

Galaxy Radio

[Gueber]

TLDR:

 

Pings are bad.

Smurfs are bad.

Quitters are bad.

Feeders are bad.

Late Joins are bad.

Parties are bad.

Uneven teams are bad. (like 3v4, 4v5)

 

All of these are contributing factors to poor Hawken matches and there is no easy fix. Some of these can probably be addressed by having the server do more balance checks during the match whenever there are player changes and performing appropriate actions to keep things balanced.

[GalaxyRadio]

For that we need first pc relaunch, no early acces and a very big pool of players, at least 5000 avg US+EU, if more regions then a couple of thousands more....

 

After that with rules from paladins applied it would be great because every match starts with 5 vs 5 and if someone is leaving or dosn't pick a mech after matchmaking, the queued starts again and in both cases the one who didn't click ready or picked a mech gets a penalty that stacks with every misbehavior up to more ten 60min. if he did it more then 4 times. Only that way people learn not to go afk and play only if they got time.

 

Well if a postman comes and ring your bell, cant be helpend, happens, but there needs to be a penalty system. After i saw that in paladins, iam really happy. Every fu***g match 5 vs 5 all active and well balanced. 

 

Well, i know only these 2 onlinegames, so there are maybe better mechanics out there, i don't know, but so far it works pretty good.

 

Galaxy Radio

[Jaquio]

 

 

 

 

 

Smurfing is not the issue. Playerbase is. 

 

Also, LB is a fine scout pilot who I enjoy challenging myself against.