66 replies to this topic

[Luaq]

Siege is TDM with breaks in between. That's it. That's all it is.

Felt a bit different when the ships had turrets and you had to shoot at it and couldn't stay at aa while taking a break...

[coldform]

TPG s3 required - required - that a team provide near constant information on enemy team movement, an understanding of everyone's role with a team, a complete naming convention for maps to facilitate this flow of information, as well as core mechanical skills - you still have to land your shots and position well in a fight to have it favor your outcome.  you could still - successfully, I might add - park a heavy with a medium or light to assist on a point to hold it down for your team, provided the rest of the team could mitigate the threat to another silo.  winning strategies revolved around a small amount of defense to hold 2 of the 3 silos, and mitigating enemy silo control to just the third one.

 

the TPG siege cup consisted of 2 heavies and a tech plopping down on AA, poking ad nauseum, with a tech using those fat chassis as cover. the other 3 harrassed and ran EU. nothing more.

 

while the regular season saw a limited selection of mech types used due to effectiveness, the tech was deemed useless, because a successful team needed to use all available players to output damage.  No other team based gamemode allowed for this.

 

yes, MA does favor movers, but siege more so - I still can kite the fuzz out of a team in siege - more easily so, since even a team that knows what to do (a rare thing) will still be concentrated in a little box less the 1/20th the size of the map.

[CraftyDus]

Tang won seige cup. We ran no tech.

[CraftyDus]

Seige cup was just 3v3 MA cup with 2 less silos and 3 more people.

[Onstrava]

What type of "war" is going on on this planet anyway because this is the happiest looking war world in the galaxy. Where's the craters, bullet holes or any type of devastation on the these maps? Hell even "dark feeling" weather would be a plus. I mean the only thing that looks like we've been fighting is the scratch filled mechs. But with these brightly colored maps it just looks like we're poor plebs that couldn't afford a REAL mech and had to dig in a trash can to throw something together. All I'm asking is, where's the war feels or proxy war feels?

Edited by Onstrava, 21 May 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[nepacaka]

What type of "war" is going on on this planet anyway because this is the happiest looking war world in the galaxy. Where's the craters, bullet holes or any type of devastation on the these maps? Hell even "dark feeling" weather would be a plus. I mean the only thing that looks like we've been fighting is the scratch filled mechs. But with these brightly colored maps it just looks like we're poor plebs that couldn't afford a REAL mech and had to dig in a trash can to throw something together. All I'm asking is, where's the war feels or proxy war feels?

hawken is not postapoc. there is no global catastrophe/nuclear/warming. only corporations clash in a future world.

Spoiler

Edited by nepacaka, 21 May 2017 - 08:54 AM.

[Onstrava]

hawken is not postapoc. there is no global catastrophe/nuclear/warming. only corporations clash in a future world.

What about the howken virus, abandon cities and deserted areas? Corporations clashing is war itself. There's no way that corps clashing with mechs on a globel scale isn't going to darken the areas that they are fighting in. That's like having two corps fight with tanks and nothing get damaged, I just don't believe that everything is going to be sunshine and fairy tales in the area. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the star above has a smiley face and asked me how good my day was. Come on, really?

Edited by Onstrava, 21 May 2017 - 09:15 AM.

[nepacaka]

What about the hocken virus, abandon cities and deserted areas? Corporations clashing is war itself. There's no way that corps clashing with mechs on a globel scale isn't going to darken the areas that they are fighting in. That's like having two corps fight with tanks and nothing get damaged, I just don't believe that everything is going to be sunshine and fairy tales in the area. At this point I would be surprised if the star above has a smiley face and asked me how good my day was. Come on, really?

hawken virus don't destroing buildings. it consume ares and turn it into metal (which can regenerate to return previous form to itself), but not ruined form of original structure, so, if hawken consume city, it is still city, but uninhabitable area like origin. Or prosk/Uptown which is сovered with the virus only partially (and maybe/probably people still sit in the houses/apartments, while the virus slowly spread more and more on the city streets, while they don't find a better place to runaway from this city. And while corporation mechs start fighting on the street sometimes with their own conflict)

techically, every map give you a chance got into the battle once (like if 2 clans always meeting on prosk in first time and fighting, it is like a little story which you can play, it is not dynamical world)
why counter-terrorist and terrorist always shoot each other on a de_dust and map always look normal, without visual destruction? because. You just live the same length of time everytime, and this is a first encounter.

Edited by nepacaka, 21 May 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[nepacaka]

also, peple can repair their cities after conflict, and building new houses. as i say, it is not post apoc, and live not stop in hawken. people goes to work, making research, working at mining company, etc.
it is like a country while civil war.

Edited by nepacaka, 21 May 2017 - 09:17 AM.

[Onstrava]

I'm just going to walk away because your logic is triggering me and this is leading no where. Just remember this, history. When two large organized groups clash for control of X resource or territory, destruction will follow there wake. Especially when they have guns and missiles and more importantly, tanks(mechs of the future).

[nepacaka]

I'm just going to walk away because your logic is triggering me and this is leading no where. Just remember this, history. When two large organized groups clash for control of X resource or territory, destruction will follow there wake. Especially when they have guns and missiles and more importantly, tanks(mechs of the future).

thats what i'm talking about. when you loading Prosk, conflict between two corps is started (in current moment, when u play), and the city is not broken/destroying. you always play first meeting beetwen prosk and sentium mechs on this map.
when you end your match, probably (use imagination because we don't have destructible environment) the prosk will be ruined after conflict when mechs fighting on a street. but the second loading on a prosk, and you again Experiencing the first hassle prosk and sentium forces in this area/city.
this is why map not look like ruined city.

the logic is, game always show you start of conflict on current location, due the story of location. (for example, Wreckage, where you fighting for a ship "treasures", but the ship was lost and broken long time ago, and now prosk and sentium group find it. this is why ship is rusty and overgrown with lianas. because ship probably lay in a jungle many years.

some sort of iron logic.
1) it is a game.
2) game style have a sunshine-cyberpunk style. not a postapoc.
3) this is why you not see ruined cities as a map.
4) point of the game show you mech in cool cyberpunk environment, don't ask a question how it made or you will be upset, because nobody (even devs) don't know why.

Edited by nepacaka, 21 May 2017 - 09:46 AM.

[Charcoal]

TPG s3 required - required - that a team provide near constant information on enemy team movement, an understanding of everyone's role with a team, a complete naming convention for maps to facilitate this flow of information, as well as core mechanical skills - you still have to land your shots and position well in a fight to have it favor your outcome.  you could still - successfully, I might add - park a heavy with a medium or light to assist on a point to hold it down for your team, provided the rest of the team could mitigate the threat to another silo.  winning strategies revolved around a small amount of defense to hold 2 of the 3 silos, and mitigating enemy silo control to just the third one.

 

the TPG siege cup consisted of 2 heavies and a tech plopping down on AA, poking ad nauseum, with a tech using those fat chassis as cover. the other 3 harrassed and ran EU. nothing more.

 

while the regular season saw a limited selection of mech types used due to effectiveness, the tech was deemed useless, because a successful team needed to use all available players to output damage.  No other team based gamemode allowed for this.

 

yes, MA does favor movers, but siege more so - I still can kite the fuzz out of a team in siege - more easily so, since even a team that knows what to do (a rare thing) will still be concentrated in a little box less the 1/20th the size of the map.

 

 

By going with 3v3 you overfavor individual fight skill over team net skill at accomplishing an objective

It's like gladiators vs soldiers

I think I understand the nature of our disagreement now

 

[Amidatelion]

I think I understand the nature of our disagreement now
 

Really? Because we've understood it for a good half-dozen of your posts now.

[Charcoal]

Really? Because we've understood it for a good half-dozen of your posts now.

It's not my fault that I'm more articulate than you, so you had it easier LOL

[Silverfire]

I'm just going to walk away because your logic is triggering me and this is leading no where. Just remember this, history. When two large organized groups clash for control of X resource or territory, destruction will follow there wake. Especially when they have guns and missiles and more importantly, tanks(mechs of the future).

There's some lore to go along with this. There's a blockade and quarantine on the planet of Illal. Detection of any large scale violence or war would involve the intervention of the people blockading the system (likely some galactic alliance sort of thing like Starfleet in Star Trek). The corporations have jointly agreed to keeping all conflict on a small scale to avoid the eyes of the important people floating in space around them so the corporations can continue churning out profit in the midst of a biotechnological virus outbreak. Thus no large scale battles no fleets and armies, just small mech squads hired as mercenaries to fight these skirmishes on the maps we have.

[Silverfire]

By going with 3v3 you overfavor individual fight skill over team net skill at accomplishing an objective

It's like gladiators vs soldiers

I think I understand the nature of our disagreement now

In siege, individual DM skills always win you the match because you are forced to engage enemies. No matter your advanced tactics, a team with better individual skill will trump the tactic. No amount of coordination can best a team with good individual skill, which in turn also means the team has good net skill. In MA it isn't quite as necessary to fight because you can intentionally avoid direct combat while still attempting to be competitive by racing around and capping silos. The DM requirement to be competitive is lower than in Siege. There is greater emphasis on team movement and formations and approaches on silos and defense of particular silos over DM skills (which is still necessary of course, but that's the case in any FPS).

Edited by Silverfire, 21 May 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[Charcoal]

In siege, individual DM skills always win you the match because you are forced to engage enemies. No matter your advanced tactics, a team with better individual skill will trump the tactic. No amount of coordination can best a team with good individual skill, which in turn also means the team has good net skill. In MA it isn't quite as necessary to fight because you can intentionally avoid direct combat while still attempting to be competitive by racing around and capping silos. The DM requirement to be competitive is lower than in Siege. There is greater emphasis on team movement and formations and approaches on silos and defense of particular silos over DM skills (which is still necessary of course, but that's the case in any FPS).

Combat skills always play into it.

You can never avoid fighting

But the balance between Combat, Needing to know the status of your teammates, Team EU levels, Ship health, etc can level a teams superior fight skills occasionally.
 

[Silverfire]

Combat skills always play into it.

You can never avoid fighting

But the balance between Combat, Needing to know the status of your teammates, Team EU levels, Ship health, etc can level a teams superior fight skills occasionally.
 

 

If you can never take the AA, then the balance between combat, needing to know the status of your teammates, EU levels on your teammates, ship health do not matter.  None of this matters if you cannot capture AA as far as I am aware.  I'm unaware of how knowing these things help you capture AA, because there's something I'm missing then.

Edited by Silverfire, 22 May 2017 - 08:03 AM.

[wischatesjesus]

But the balance between Combat, Needing to know the status of your teammates, Team EU levels, Ship health, etc can level a teams superior fight skills occasionally.

 

There is no balance between combat and needing to know the status of your teammates. You need to be able to fight, and you need to know the status of your team. No compromise.

 

Being able to do a rough addition to know that you can launch a ship just tells you whether you need to be on the AA soon or or now. Regardless of when you get there (and you must, there are no options here) you must be able to fight when you get there.

 

Knowing the ship health only matters if you are deciding to shoot it, which only occurs if you can't take AA, which means you lose. I suppose you could get a few extra seconds head start on fighting for EU if you know the last rocket is in the air, but that will mostly just help you win faster.

 

Now in a pub with questionably competent randoms you might see some efficiency come from directing your pubbers with this information, but if everyone on both sides already knows whats going on (and really, it isn't complicated) then the only thing left is how well you can kill mechs. Siege becomes more boring as the competing teams get better.

[StubbornPuppet]

Originally, there was supposed to be environments that slowly rebuilt themselves via some nanoprobes that became a virus.  It was a way to explain the original Hawken where the environment was destructible.  Unfortunately, that just didn't work out - it was a bit resource intensive... but mostly it ruined the gameplay on team objectives because once the cover was destroyed, there was no way for the team on the "fuzzy end of the stick" to approach and get close enough to contest and turn the tables.

[Charcoal]

If you can never take the AA, then the balance between combat, needing to know the status of your teammates, EU levels on your teammates, ship health do not matter.  None of this matters if you cannot capture AA as far as I am aware.  I'm unaware of how knowing these things help you capture AA, because there's something I'm missing then.

I think I'm not explaining well that basic combat skills are taken for granted.

By balance I don't mean that 'Pure strat can completely moot combat skills'

When combat falls within a certain range over/under , then tactics, coordination and strategy become the winning factors.

*  I didn't think i would have needed to explain this lol
** And Yes, If you get the feeling that I'd really like 'Illal: Total War', then you'd be right

Edited by Charcoal, 22 May 2017 - 10:41 AM.

[Silverfire]

I think I'm not explaining well that basic combat skills are taken for granted.

By balance I don't mean that 'Pure strat can completely moot combat skills'

When combat falls within a certain range over/under , then tactics, coordination and strategy become the winning factors.

*  I didn't think i would have needed to explain this lol
** And Yes, If you get the feeling that I'd really like 'Illal: Total War', then you'd be right

 

Okay.

 

And I think the argument being presented currently is that Missile Assault emphasizes coordination, tactics, and strategy far greater than Siege.  You think it's Siege, and others have claimed it's Missile Assault.

 

Why is Siege superior in terms of tactics, coordination, and strategy when compared to Missile Assault?

[Chaplain5]

If I could be allowed my 2cents worth:

 

I'm pretty sure that neither mode is superior in terms of tactics, coordination, and strategy. Different modes call for different tactics. You can pwn at Missile Assault and get rekt at Siege. Or vice versa. Your Missile Assault skills don't apply much to Siege. Or vice versa.

 

Personally I feel that Missile Assault is easier to get the hang of for n00bs like myself, but yeah.

[Nolo24]

Originally, there was supposed to be environments that slowly rebuilt themselves via some nanoprobes that became a virus. It was a way to explain the original Hawken where the environment was destructible. Unfortunately, that just didn't work out - it was a bit resource intensive... but mostly it ruined the gameplay on team objectives because once the cover was destroyed, there was no way for the team on the "fuzzy end of the stick" to approach and get close enough to contest and turn the tables.

Where did you hear/get this?

Edited by Nolo24, 22 May 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Originally, there was supposed to be environments that slowly rebuilt themselves via some nanoprobes that became a virus.  It was a way to explain the original Hawken where the environment was destructible.  Unfortunately, that just didn't work out - it was a bit resource intensive... but mostly it ruined the gameplay on team objectives because once the cover was destroyed, there was no way for the team on the "fuzzy end of the stick" to approach and get close enough to contest and turn the tables.

 

 

Where did you hear/get this?

 

It's really old, like pre-alpha stuff.  There was a playable tech demo of it at 2012 PAX (I think it was also at E3).

 

Here's two of the destructable environment videos:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Kwi8DvsmPrE

https://www.youtube....h?v=u4uwF4-YEP0

 

They had this worked into the mythos for the Hawken/Illal universe - I believe Hawken was the name of the "virus".

 

I also found one from when Hawken still actually had Nvidea Particle and Turbulence PhysX:

https://www.youtube....h?v=YVvaMBhfHlE

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 22 May 2017 - 05:14 PM.

[Charcoal]

Okay.

 

And I think the argument being presented currently is that Missile Assault emphasizes coordination, tactics, and strategy far greater than Siege.  You think it's Siege, and others have claimed it's Missile Assault.

 

Why is Siege superior in terms of tactics, coordination, and strategy when compared to Missile AssauIt

I thought I had originally just asked for a clarification on why he hated Siege so much....

The MA/Siege portion is just my preference.

But I'd prefer MA to be more like this lol

* Man I miss that game! They used to have a map you could draw on for coordination purposes

Edited by Charcoal, 22 May 2017 - 08:28 PM.

[Bad_BennyAK]

Siege is TDM with breaks in between. That's it. That's all it is. You cannot reduce it lower than that or pile on strategies that will ever overcome that part of it. MA at least allows you to mitigate the DMing and attempt to outrace the enemy team on points in the ringaround. In Siege, if you play the mode properly, which, spoiler, everyone does at higher levels, you get to play TDM in a tiny little box.

Because no matter what you do, no matter how many guns or engines you take out, no matter how much EU deliver, at the end of the day, control of the AA wins the game.

And the AA lives in a tiny box you need to fight the other team over.

Disagree.   You play TDM for any amount of time, one thing you discover is how teams roam,  it can be a very fluid battlefield.  Siege is part race, part TDM, part King  of the Hill.