42 replies to this topic

[StubbornPuppet]

So, now that changes are happening on PC, here's a feature request that has been on my mind for the last 4 years...

 

How about an option to swap the right and left arms on the mechs?  It's a player preference sort of thing.

 

As it's set up in Hawken now, the Primary weapon is always on the left hand, and the Secondary is always on the right (duh).

 

However, both because I am much more used to seeing my primary weapon in my right hand and because I use (for every game) a control scheme that has my right hand clicking to fire my primary weapon and my left hand clicking to fire my secondary... it's always backwards.  This gets really confusing sometimes, especially on mechs with dual-wield or for which one has to hold down the button/clicker until they want to fire.  It also often causes me issues when corner-poking - as in I take a lot of self-damage from firing into the corner instead of around it.

 

A simple toggle option to "Swap Left and Right Arms" would be a huge improvement for me.

 

Please?!?!

[DingdongJR]

So, now that changes are happening on PC, here's a feature request that has been on my mind for the last 4 years...

 

How about an option to swap the right and left arms on the mechs?  It's a player preference sort of thing.

 

As it's set up in Hawken now, the Primary weapon is always on the left hand, and the Secondary is always on the right (duh).

 

However, both because I am much more used to seeing my primary weapon in my right hand and because I use (for every game) a control scheme that has my right hand clicking to fire my primary weapon and my left hand clicking to fire my secondary... it's always backwards.  This gets really confusing sometimes, especially on mechs with dual-wield or for which one has to hold down the button/clicker until they want to fire.  It also often causes me issues when corner-poking - as in I take a lot of self-damage from firing into the corner instead of around it.

 

A simple toggle option to "Swap Left and Right Arms" would be a huge improvement for me.

 

Please?!?!

 

[wischatesjesus]

This would be a non-trivial change to how maps flow unless the mechs are changed to fire from the camera. Right now weapons fire from the weapon model itself, which affects how you play right or left hand corners.

[StubbornPuppet]

This would be a non-trivial change to how maps flow unless the mechs are changed to fire from the camera. Right now weapons fire from the weapon model itself, which affects how you play right or left hand corners.

 

Oh, sure... but if it is screwing with players heads, it's non-trivial to the more important player experience.

 

Let me ask this: "Which arm is the primary on for Console?"

For folks playing with a controller, it would be really awkward to have the primary fire weapon on the left, since the primary fire button is on the right?

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 31 May 2017 - 09:40 AM.

[Zavier_]

I really don't think it would affect , if anything at all.It's fine just the way it is , or else people might have problems with their muscle memory for a while atleast.

[StubbornPuppet]

I really don't think it would affect , if anything at all.It's fine just the way it is , or else people might have problems with their muscle memory for a while atleast.

 

I've been playing this for 4 years... and have never got used to it.  It's especially frustrating on dual-wield mechs and those where you have to hold the triggers down to charge.  The CIV and Vytro are perfect examples of how hard it is to manage with the buttons and the arms being reversed.

[peacecraftSLD]

I've been playing this for 4 years... and have never got used to it.  It's especially frustrating on dual-wield mechs and those where you have to hold the triggers down to charge.  The CIV and Vytro are perfect examples of how hard it is to manage with the buttons and the arms being reversed.

 

I also had that idea. Not for confusing other players but since the secondary is always on the right, you have to kinda hang off the right side of walls to only fire your secondary around a wall where as if you are on the left you can only fire the primary. I think it would be cool.

[claisolais]

I've been playing this for 4 years... and have never got used to it.  It's especially frustrating on dual-wield mechs and those where you have to hold the triggers down to charge.  The CIV and Vytro are perfect examples of how hard it is to manage with the buttons and the arms being reversed.

I would love to switch my T32/breacher to other places.

[wolfrock]

I would love to switch my T32/breacher to other places.

breacher -> between legs

[JeffMagnum]

It would affect chokes (the primary contested Uptown one immediately comes to mind as an area that'd be easier to break through with secondaries on the left for the side coming from the walkways) as well as 1v1s especially if the players had opposite weapon orientations. Idk, this suggestion seems like something else to mess up balance when that's already in flux plus it'd also make map design harder. It might seem like a preference or ease of use adjustment but with the way the weapons currently fire it'd have much deeper gameplay consequences. 

 

This goes into movement direction and weapon orientation with TOW specifically and why it's important

Edited by JeffMagnum, 31 May 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[Amidatelion]

This goes into movement direction and weapon orientation with TOW specifically and why it's important

I was LOOKING for that video, THANK YOU.

[(Xbox)CosmicCasey59]

On the Xbox primary weapon is on the left,I also would like to change left and right arms but only on a couple mechs. I can get into button mapping but then I'm stuck playing that mech till I go in and set buttons back.

[Leghorn10314]

Try a G2 Assault with a SMG for primary. Not perfect but a better feel, since the smg has no fire delay, and creates less heat.

Also look at JOB.

[Arkhaun]

Console feels incredibly awkward for me with the primary and secondary where they are. Like every fight feels like a chef in front a health inspector whos blocking the sink while waiting on you to serve him. Or a T-Rex cast as Tarzan is another example

[6ixxer]

Im used to games where you left click primary and right click to alt fire. Hawken weapon setup seems fine to me...

I think allowing swapping will make it a hassle for other players to see when your secondary is firing to dodge.
I vote, no arm swapping.

[StubbornPuppet]

Im used to games where you left click primary and right click to alt fire. Hawken weapon setup seems fine to me...

I think allowing swapping will make it a hassle for other players to see when your secondary is firing to dodge.
I vote, no arm swapping.

 

That sort of becomes a debate of "do we avoid a feature because it might occasionally annoy an opponent OR implement a feature to alleviate a huge annoyance to the player?"

 

I get where you're coming from - especially from a position of being comfortable where you are.  But, from my perspective, my level and ease of control in a video game is paramount to my enjoyment of it - if a player finds controlling their character difficult, they are far less likely to have enough fun to stick around.  I think developers should always focus FIRST on the players most intimate experiences with a game (controls and ease-of-use).

[talons1337]

What about the point that map balance would be completely thrown off if you could swap arms?

[StubbornPuppet]

What about the point that map balance would be completely thrown off if you could swap arms?

 

I simply don't agree that it is the issue that some think it is.  First, you can be guaranteed that the original ADH map creators didn't give which arm had which weapon a second (or even first) thought.  Second, for every corner where it is better to have a secondary on the right arm, there is another corner where it's better to have it on the left.  And I don't see any realistic scenario where players will be going around constantly going back into their settings to configure left/right.  If that's a concern, lock the option so that it cannot be changed once the player joins a server.

 

I'd think folks would be kind of positive about the notion of adding a little variety to maps which got stale 4 years ago... even though I firmly believe this is a really minimal impact suggestion.

[Nymwasob]

Apologies if someone already said this, but I would disagree with a universal swapping of arms, but would agree that there should be an OPTION for people to swap arms. There shuould be no unfair adavantage in that, and having options and choices are a good thing.

I do wish that the (Primary?) weapon would have a choice. The (secondary?) weapon has choices, why not the primary?
- I may have that backwards, lol...

[6ixxer]

No swapping secondaries, and still no on swapping arms.
It'll fuzz things up for pretty much no benefit.

[Nymwasob]

No swapping secondaries, and still no on swapping arms.
It'll fuzz things up for pretty much no benefit.

Please explain just how merely swapping arms from left to right or visa versa is in any way unfair, unbalanced, etc...
Are you saying that right-handed players have an advantage, and it would be wrong to have a level playing field?
Left, right, what the hell is the difference?
In fact, it should in game logic make no difference.
Explain your objection with some actual facts and reality please.

[6ixxer]

I have mentioned my main reason before. Others have posted reasons that I also agree with. Im not going over it.

[Nymwasob]

I have mentioned my main reason before. Others have posted reasons that I also agree with. Im not going over it.

You don't want to go over it?
You don't want to explain?

If it is such a negative experience, then maybe you should not have left the reply to my post in the first place.

You are against people's valid points, you attack me for my post(s), you insult me and probably others too.
If it is too much effort to explain a negative or opposing post you leave, then it should also be too much effort to leave the negative or opposing remark in the first place.

Edited by Nymwasob, 23 July 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[DeltaBravo]

As far as I see it, the reason was stated and, while not elaborate, made the point.  It's really not necessary to issue such a verbose attack every time someone says something that you don't want to hear.  

[6ixxer]

Explain your objection with some actual facts and reality please.

 

Fact: It will take a heap of Dev time to make it work, and then more to fix all the bugs

 

Reality: No one will pay for it.

[nepacaka]

As it's set up in Hawken now, the Primary weapon is always on the left hand, and the Secondary is always on the right (duh).

 

devs create several mechs special for you.
g2-sasult, g2-36m, g2-gren, g2-civ, g2-vytro, g2-SS, g2-reaper, charge, nief, ord and kerby (11 mechs, not bad huh). their bullets flying from center of mechs, so, you not shoot the corner (except civ, but you not explode youself, and except gren, but their arms are equal to adapt)

Edited by nepacaka, 23 July 2017 - 08:07 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I have mentioned my main reason before. Others have posted reasons that I also agree with. Im not going over it.

 

 

You don't want to go over it?
You don't want to explain?

If it is such a negative experience, then maybe you should not have left the reply to my post in the first place.

You are against people's valid points, you attack me for my post(s), you insult me and probably others too.
If it is too much effort to explain a negative or opposing post you leave, then it should also be too much effort to leave the negative or opposing remark in the first place.

 

He already stated his reasons above, in this very topic.

 

His reasons are appreciable, but I still don't agree with them.

 

I don't think that it's going to mess up choke points and ruin the flow of the game like some folks do.  It may allow for a bit more variety in the dynamics at higher skill levels... but I don't think it's breaking anything, just challenging high level players who have memorized and learned to count on fights in certain areas of the maps going a specific way.  I think it will just force them to adapt and find new ways to engage with opponents.

 

I also don't agree that "it will fuzz things up WITH NO BENEFIT."  The benefit is that players who use anything but the traditional KBM setup will not have to constantly battle with the confusion of having the left hand fire on the right button and the right hand fire on the left.  I'd call that a big benefit.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 24 July 2017 - 07:00 AM.

[6ixxer]

 The benefit is that players who use anything but the traditional KBM setup will not have to constantly battle with the confusion of having the left hand fire on the right button and the right hand fire on the left.  I'd call that a big benefit.

 

Controller button remapping would allow left shoulder to fire left, and right to fire right. 

I'd actually like to have right shoulder trigger and bumper be primary & secondary to make it easier for me, and have the left trigger and bumper be boost/dodge and hover (or maybe repair). Movement left hand, weapons right hand. This would assist people like me coming from lefty-joystick+mouse and possibly also some KBM users.

 

Perhaps it won't completely solve your prpblem, but probably easier and more likely to develop (might even be already developing. i'm sure button mapping has been mentioned). Fixing your own problem shouldn't cause problems for others. Swapping arms causes problems for others, without doubt. You will need to learn to change your playstyle a little.

 

My objections to swapping arms aren't going to go away.

Edited by 6ixxer, 24 July 2017 - 06:55 PM.

[Gueber]

The first person view of some of the models wasn't designed to be viewed from both sides, they would have to make a mirror version of all models and animations just to do this it's more work then you think.

Edited by Gueber, 25 July 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[6ixxer]

I also don't agree that "it will fuzz things up WITH NO BENEFIT."

I cant believe i missed it first time. Thats a missquote. I didn't say zero/no benefit. I said "pretty much" none. Ie only minimal, which to me still seems accurate.

[StubbornPuppet]

I cant believe i missed it first time. Thats a missquote. I didn't say zero/no benefit. I said "pretty much" none. Ie only minimal, which to me still seems accurate.

 

Sorry.

 

Gueber, I didn't say it wouldn't be much work... I'm not trying to concern myself with "how much work" an improvement to the player experience requires, just stating it and allowing for the developers to figure the work part out on their own.  Even then... copying and reversing the visual representation of a graphic asset isn't that big of a deal - The Unreal engine has a built in single click option in the UI for doing just that.

 

Oh, by the way, I've tried the remapping of the buttons... and I originally thought the solution was just that easy.... but it ended up being even more confounding because of decades of muscle memory telling me that the primary fire button is on the right and secondary is on the left.  That was really, really just too hard to overcome for just one game.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 25 July 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[DeltaBravo]

Sorry.

 

Gueber, I didn't say it wouldn't be much work... I'm not trying to concern myself with "how much work" an improvement to the player experience requires, just stating it and allowing for the developers to figure the work part out on their own.  Even then... copying and reversing the visual representation of a graphic asset isn't that big of a deal - The Unreal engine has a built in single click option in the UI for doing just that.

 

Oh, by the way, I've tried the remapping of the buttons... and I originally thought the solution was just that easy.... but it ended up being even more confounding because of decades of muscle memory telling me that the primary fire button is on the right and secondary is on the left.  That was really, really just too hard to overcome for just one game.

Is this a configuration that you adopted for yourself?  I'm just curious, as I've always been traditional with Primary on left, Secondary on right, an Scope middle click.  I did adopt side mouse buttons for items in Hawken, but my clumsy bear claws for hands always hit those and I wasted them, so back to the number keys.  

 

Another note is that I am left-handed, but have always adapted to the right-handed way of things; even being ambidextrous until I realize that I'm that I'm using my non-dominant hand.  Not sure if my brain is wired quite right anyway, as I write and do finer actions with my left hand while I play golf right-handed.  Go figure.

[StubbornPuppet]

^DeltaBravo, my personal configuration is unique for a PC player, but controller/console players are all being forced to play where the Right Trigger fires the Primary weapon, which is on the Left arm of Hawken mechs and the Left trigger fires the Secondary weapon, which is on the Right arm.

 

It's simply very confusing visually and logically.  The human brain isn't wired to be able to learn to associate a movement with one hand to an action caused by the other hand.  When we play a first person game, the screen becomes a visual extension of our world and those become our hands.

 

A few people have mockingly said, "Then just use one of the dual-wielding mechs if you're so confused." implying that it's more of a failure to be able to play the game well.  The way I see it though, when a player is poking around corners, even with a dual-wielder, they want to fire the weapon that pops out from around the corner... using an action from their actual hand which visually matches.  But, that means this is an instant and persistent problem for controller/console players - they will always have to fight their natural instinct.  And since first person shooters have traditionally ALWAYS had the primary weapon in the right hand,and fire with the right controller trigger or a button pressed by the right fingers (even if it is the left mouse button), asking people to change which button they assign primary fire to... for one single game that decided to do it differently for some reason... is unreasonable.

[Lion_ThunderPants]

^DeltaBravo, my personal configuration is unique for a PC player, but controller/console players are all being forced to play where the Right Trigger fires the Primary weapon, which is on the Left arm of Hawken mechs and the Left trigger fires the Secondary weapon, which is on the Right arm.

I'm not experiencing this on Xbox, never have. My buddies Xbox/account also does not have this. So, at the very least, it's not 100% this way?

[StubbornPuppet]

I'm not experiencing this on Xbox, never have. My buddies Xbox/account also does not have this. So, at the very least, it's not 100% this way?

 

What do you mean exactly by "This"?  Are you saying that the mechs on Xbox have the primary weapon on the right arm and the secondary weapon on the left arm?  Example: An Assault has the Assault Rifle (machine gun) on the Right arm and the TOW launcher on the Left.

 

If that's the case, then I've been misinformed and this means that the devs have already done the work to reverse the appearance of the graphic assets and applying the ability to put this feature in the PC version is really easy.

[CosmicCasey59]

What do you mean exactly by "This"? Are you saying that the mechs on Xbox have the primary weapon on the right arm and the secondary weapon on the left arm? Example: An Assault has the Assault Rifle (machine gun) on the Right arm and the TOW launcher on the Left.

If that's the case, then I've been misinformed and this means that the devs have already done the work to reverse the appearance of the graphic assets and applying the ability to put this feature in the PC version is really easy.

They are the same but you can remap the buttons.

[EM1O]

for pc, if the reassignment of xbox controls in the Settings is a tad tedious,  use third-party software (i use Xpadder.exe) to remap your buttons.  to do quickchanges, just pop into the app and do it.

of course you still have to uncomment all of the button assignments in the Settings or you get double clicks on them with the controller...

personally i have difficulty with the fatfingersfandango on kb,  so controller is a godsend here. 

[DeltaBravo]

I can see where you're coming from concerning the mapping for controllers.  Having the left and right triggers not correspond with the same side of the mech would be a bit disconcerting.  It would certainly mess with my mind, as visual representation on screen not matching the triggers would be confusing and my brain would probably have a small short circuit and cause me to develop an uncontrollable eye twitch.

[Lion_ThunderPants]

What do you mean exactly by "This"? Are you saying that the mechs on Xbox have the primary weapon on the right arm and the secondary weapon on the left arm? Example: An Assault has the Assault Rifle (machine gun) on the Right arm and the TOW launcher on the Left.

If that's the case, then I've been misinformed and this means that the devs have already done the work to reverse the appearance of the graphic assets and applying the ability to put this feature in the PC version is really easy.

Xbox mechs have always had TOWs/GLs/Hellfires on the right hand and the right trigger works it; SMC, AR, Vulcan, etc. Are all on the left hand and controlled with the left trigger. This is consistent across mine and my buddies Xbox since console launch. I may have read your post wrong, you're saying TOWs and the like are on the left? That's certainly not the case for me and never has been here on Xbox. Please ignore me if I'm just reading your post wrongly and spouting nonsense.

Edit: To clarify, the port from PC to console had not changed weapon orientation and my Xbox account does not show any mechs with the TOW on the left. If PC is like that after the last update, that blows badly. I'd hop on to check it out but toaster PC and RLDs update don't mix...

Edited by Lion_ThunderPants, 27 July 2017 - 03:55 PM.

[6ixxer]

He's saying his muscle memory is the issue, as he is used to clicking right for primary weap.

Then if remapped he has other issues that right trigger fires left and vice versa, so he sometimes tows the wall and does self damage.

 

Its not an issue with the game, He's asking them to cater to his preference.

Edited by 6ixxer, 27 July 2017 - 05:23 PM.