59 replies to this topic

[Nept]

 

*Edit* Pre-season matches start on Sunday, June 14th.  Registration will remain open for awhile, but if you're interested in joining, hop to it! https://community.pl...nday-june-14th/

 

We've opened TPG's Season 3 signups, so I'm requesting that a) all interested players register through the TPG site; b) that captains either create their new teams or contact me re: their old ones; and c) that players join their teams asap (obtain the join pw from your captain).  Although registration will remain open for awhile, all interested parties should sort themselves quickly: more scheduling options - especially for weaker and/or newer teams - are available if our admins have an accurate estimate of interested teams.

 

We'll be discussing the Season 3 gametype(s) over the next week, and aim to start our pre-season matches in early June.  I've posted a Siege feedback thread on the official Hawken forums, but players are also welcome to discuss the merits of TDM and MA within that space.  Expect to see some topics concerning item and internal options as well.

 

 

*Edit*

We've selected Missile Assault (MA) as our Season 3 gametype.  There wasn't an especially clear winner within our poll, where Siege, TDM, and "Indifferent" gathered roughly the same number of votes, and Missile Assault collected an additional 6 or 7.  MA worked well during Season 2, though, and provides the following benefits:

• Emphasizes map strategy and team coordination
• Small-group tactics still present, but not as complex as 6v6 TDM
• Shooting skills de-emphasized.  Still present and important, of course.
• Score disparities tend to be lower - especially on triangular maps.  Can be better for morale.
• Provides weaker TDM teams their best shot at beating stronger teams - especially if the stronger team isn't properly controlling spawns on triangular maps.
• Punishes overly-passive play
• Multi-point gametypes are typically well-balanced and difficult for designers to get wrong. 
• Match length is limited by the missiles constantly chipping away at base health.
• Good map selection.

Put simply, Missile Assault is a well-balanced, competitive gametype that offers weaker teams their best shot against stronger opponents.  It's also strategically familiar to most TPG teams.  If you're upset over our gametype decision, don't worry: TPG will be hosting Siege and TDM Cups throughout our competitive Season.

 

 

So get your butts in gear.  Do you homework, talk to your friends, shift people onto teams within the week.  If you feel that your team's not strong enough to participate, know that TPG's targeted at players of all ability levels.  Additionally, if we've enough new teams, we'll be able to schedule around their needs more effectively.  Ideally, we'd have at least 12 teams of various ability levels.

 

*Edit* If any captains want to change their team's name, just let me know.  I've kept active the 5-6 vet teams that have confirmed their Season 3 participation.  I would also appreciate it if captains could clear their rosters of inactive players.

 

 

Confirmed Teams

---------------------------------------------------

 

Axe Attack, captained by Counterlogicman

 

The Automatic Mustangs, captained by M1lkshake

 

The B-Team, captained by Amidatelion

 

Team Handsome, captained by Nept

 

The Hawken Collective, captained by Elite

 

Super Awesome Sparkle Cakes, captained by breadeffect

 

Trentik Defense Militia, captained by crockrocket

 

Crushinator, captained by LoC_TR

 

Violent Resolution, captained by OmegaNull

Edited by God-King Nept, 08 July 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[LoC_TR]

Fine nept, stop harassing me.

[CounterlogicMan]

[Elite_is_salty]

Let's hope it's siege for S3.

[IareDave]

TDM or I'm quitting Hawken.

[Nept]

Good.  Go get good at UT.

[_incitatus]

TDM or I'm quitting Hawken.

Let's hope it's siege for S3.

[OdinTheWise]

TDM or I'm quitting Hawken.

we dont need you anyways lol

[Amidatelion]

Right, kicking off the discussion for Season 3's gamemode.

 

I think it should be MA. Quoting from the previous thread:

 

 

 

It's TDM in a smaller area, with limited approaches. The team that DMs better will win. You will eventually need AA. What flexibility you have is on avenues of attack, but once the attack starts, it's just TDM.

 

EU collection is basically just a formality. Sure, you can pull some clever stuff with counter launches, and ambushing EU collectors, but in the end all of that is pointless. If you control AA, you win. And you do it by DMing better than the other team. The tactical flexibility that lets lower ranked teams compete in Missile Assault is simply not present in Siege. 

 

Furthermore, I know that the games didn't go on longer, but consider: that was because with the exception of maybe one team, everyone else fielded half-prepared, untested teams. And to quote that team:

 

 

4- You can delay your loss easily in siege, give your team a moment to gather themselves, rethink of a better approach and pretty much some hope to comeback. Ourselves, we trusted comic to be able to take the ship down every single time we were in danger, and we were able to turn what could've been a 10 min game loss to almost 40 mins of action, give and go, and I tell you what, we gave tang a nice run for their money the second game. 

 

Once teams tighten up, there's going to be a lot more of this. There are absolutely ways to delay the end of a game. But what's the point? In the end, you need AA or a 1200 EU ship is going to laugh at your attempts to shoot it down from your base. And you're going to have played a 40 minute game with another, exactly like it, coming up behind it. You think morale is hard enough to keep up in MA? It's going to be 100% worse in Siege. MA at least has a sense of dynamism to the give and take of silos, multiple possible objectives to keep your mind focused away from your loss. 

 

Honestly, I would prefer to play TDM over Siege. At least then the games will be over in 10 minutes, maximum, and my learning experience will have been identical in subject matter and over a broader map area. I don't particularly look forward to having to push into an AA with an Incin, Gren and Brawler being healed by a tech with snipers covering from range. It's going to monobuild fast, because there is a limited number of ideal strategies and almost all of them work on all maps. I'd rather run into a monobuild occasionally in the hanger on Wreckage than have to fight over the goddamn soggy-ass AA all day. One thing MA demonstrated was that it required flexibility to deal with the changing tactical situation.

 

If I want to play TDM, I'll play TDM.

Edited by Amidatelion, 31 May 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

No to siege. If the game type is siege, I will very seriously consider backing out of TPG. There's a reason that the first two seasons were MA and TDM and not Siege.

 

First, siege is long and exhausting. Sure, some games are fast, but for the most part, they take a very long time between two competent teams.

 

Second, early advantage is extremely important and playing catch up is never fun. It can take a really long time to catch up in a game of siege, with the team currently in the lead consistently at an advantage, and having to try only 90% as hard to keep that advantage especially end game. The team with an early advantage is going to win more times than not, with the loser often trying twice as hard to no avail, for a solid half hour or longer, and then being faced with the prospect of doing it again, maybe even twice.

 

I'm not sitting at my desk playing siege for two hours straight. I'm just not. If you really want siege, you're going to have to field larger teams, because there's a much greater chance that people are just going to back out, both from not wanting to play anymore and from the fact that the more time someone spends at their desk, the more things happen around them, and the greater possibility that they'll just have to leave.

 

I would rather do TPG co op bot destruction.

 

(I'd also really like another season of TDM, considering I didn't participate in the first one and it offers the greatest map variety, perhaps just banning Origin and Uptown for their potential to be really stale.)

 

Saying lets do a TPG season full of Siege, best of three is like saying "Hey, we're going to play Risk. Best out of three wins!" Like. No. No. No way jose. I can't express how very "No" siege is for comp play.

 

Also everything Amid said. Am I making my desires clear?

 

No.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 31 May 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[Silverfire]

Competitive tutorial speedruns

 

take the average time of every person in the team and compare per team

 

Edited by Silverfire, 31 May 2015 - 05:09 PM.

[Elite_is_salty]

 

 

 

I think you two gents need to watch other team's games.

 

Edit: you guys are awesome friends and I don't wish for something that'll make you unhappy, therefore I wish you could've gotten more time to play siege. Also I know that amid made his mind about refusing siege before the cup, and that definitely influenced his final opinion. But that's how things are I guess.

Edited by Elite Trash Talker, 31 May 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[eth0]

If siege is too long it's because you're a skrubba-lubba-ding-dong. A real pilot doesn't get out of the cockpit until the base is in the ground or they are.

[ticklemyiguana]

If siege is too long it's because you're a skrubba-lubba-ding-dong. A real pilot doesn't get out of the cockpit until the base is in the ground or they are.

Sure. For one game. One game of siege is fine. But I don't think subjecting pilots to the possibility of three very long games is much fun, and one game per match up isn't very competitive.

[Elite_is_salty]

Is there a way to change base health for siege games? Make it 1500 or 2000 instead of 3000. Is there a command for it?

[ticklemyiguana]

Is there a way to change base health for siege games? Make it 1500 or 2000 instead of 3000. Is there a command for it?

This is not an available feature in private servers, but a good suggestion.

[Nept]

We wouldn't run best of three were Siege selected for Season 3.  At most, we'd run two maps and combine scores.

[Elite_is_salty]

This is not an available feature in private servers, but a good suggestion.

 

If josh can do make this possible, it will make the length of the games convenient for you and maybe solve our little problem. Though other guys still will object to the mode for other reasons they stated. 

[Elite_is_salty]

I actually should go sleep before I die and you all get rid of me lol

[ticklemyiguana]

We wouldn't run best of three were Siege selected for Season 3.  At most, we'd run two maps and combine scores.

This strikes me as a little funny. This variant either results in a tie, or a point during the second game at which one team could still win, but will lose the series no matter what, result in some amount of time that's entirely pointless - which again, strikes me funny.

 

The one game option simply does not seem competitive to me, the two game option seems weird and... well... less meaningful than the three game option, and it still has the potential to be quite long, but the three game option is just long. Long as fuzzy bunny.

 

The only conceivable way in which you could form a siege tournament (in my mind) seems to be through double elimination, but at that point it's just a meaningless tournament, and not each team testing themselves against every other team.

 

If josh can do make this possible, it will make the length of the games convenient for you and maybe solve our little problem. Though other guys still will object to the mode for other reasons they stated. 

 

While my biggest complaint is definitely time, I do agree with many objections made toward a competitive siege season. Regardless it would still be very nice if we could modify the end score of MA and SG the same way we can with TDM.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 31 May 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Nept]

 

This strikes me as a little funny. This variant either results in a tie, or a point during the second game at which one team could still win, but will lose the series no matter what, result in some amount of time that's entirely pointless - which again, strikes me funny.

 

The one game option simply does not seem competitive to me, the two game option seems weird and... well... less meaningful than the three game option, and it still has the potential to be quite long, but the three game option is just long. Long as fuzzy bunny.

 

 

Say we've a choice between a) not competitive, b) a little funny, and c) way too long.  Which would you select?  Personally, option b) seems most reasonable - especially since combining scores across two maps has been fairly common within Omni's competitive experience.

 

As for incentives to continue playing past the "loss point" on the second map, score differential is typically the decider between teams with the same win/loss records.

Edited by Nept, 31 May 2015 - 06:37 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Say we've a choice between a) not competitive, b) a little funny, and c) way too long.  Which would you select?  Personally, option b) seems most reasonable - especially since combining scores across two maps has been fairly common within Omni's competitive experience.

d) Not playing siege and avoiding all that nonsense.

[Nept]

I've got only one D to give you, and it's not that one.

[Amidatelion]

Edit: you guys are awesome friends and I don't wish for something that'll make you unhappy, therefore I wish you could've gotten more time to play siege. Also I know that amid made his mind about refusing siege before the cup, and that definitely influenced his final opinion. But that's how things are I guess.

 

Please don't shove opinions into my head.

 

I came with two hypotheses. One was proven correct, and I was willing to concede the other until I subbed for cannon fodder tonight. Two evenly matched teams will have a game of minimum 30 minutes. Don't get me wrong, it was hella fun... for that half hour. There is no reason to believe that TPG scheduling this season will run any smoother than it has and requiring an hour-long commitment of people who have school, families and other commitments is not feasible given past evidence. And that's an hour of play time, not counting disconnects, sync issues and the whole plethora of built-in issues Hawken has that we have to deal with. 

 

 

Say we've a choice between a) not competitive, b) a little funny, and c) way too long.  Which would you select?  Personally, option b) seems most reasonable - especially since combining scores across two maps has been fairly common within Omni's competitive experience.

 

As for incentives to continue playing past the "loss point" on the second map, score differential is typically the decider between teams with the same win/loss records.

 

d) Not playing siege and avoiding all that nonsense.

 

If we have to play Siege I would recommend

 

e) Plot the entire season out ahead of time. Run it as a double round-robin system with each team getting map pick once and count total number of wins. If you feel the need for playoffs, use the top 4-6. Give the season a hard (oh who the fuzz am I kidding, this is going to be soft as hell) deadline for ending and leave it up to the teams to sort out their matches. Any matches not organized by the end of the season are dropped. If you can't organize 18~ matches over 4 months, that's your problem.

[CraftyDus]

signup !

[ticklemyiguana]

I've got only one D to give you, and it's not that one.

I love donuts.

[PsychedelicGrass]

I'll try and convince the rest of vR to field a team but i dunno if they feel ready quite yet :/

[Silverfire]

I'll try and convince the rest of vR to field a team but i dunno if they feel ready quite yet :/

 

Fastest way to get better is to play in TPG, if anything it forces people to schedule scrims with you guys so that you can practice! Count it as a guaranteed practice against real people.

[ThirdEyE]

I'll try and convince the rest of vR to field a team but i dunno if they feel ready quite yet :/

What's holding you guys back?  Worst case is you lose some games of Hawken, which isn't so bad.  You guys seem to have solid players anyway and you'll become more of a team by playing together through thick and thin.  Who knows, maybe you'll beat teams you expect to lose to!  Look at TANG, they placed 3rd in season 2 but were the only team to take a game off Omni (I think?)

[M1lkshake]

I'll try and convince the rest of vR to field a team but i dunno if they feel ready quite yet :/

The Mustangs were not ready for season one. We came in last with zero wins. Then, the next season, we came in third, and we just recently won the siege cup.

If you want your team to improve, It's a good idea to join, even if you don't feel ready. 

EDIT: Thirdeye beat me to it.

Edited by M1lkshake, 31 May 2015 - 08:33 PM.

[Nept]

Not true - you had one win.  It was a forfeit.

[Nept]

What's holding you guys back?  Worst case is you lose some games of Hawken, which isn't so bad.  You guys seem to have solid players anyway and you'll become more of a team by playing together through thick and thin.  Who knows, maybe you'll beat teams you expect to lose to!  Look at TANG, they placed 3rd in season 2 but were the only team to take a game off Omni (I think?)

 

Axe Attack also took a round, iirc.

[PsychedelicGrass]

Welp looks like we're on for season 3 :D

[IareDave]

Axe Attack also took a round, iirc.

I wasn't there for either of them.

JUST SAIYAN.

[Elite_is_salty]

Please don't shove opinions into my head.

 

Please don't shove your opinion up everyone's ass.

 

Seriously. 

[LEmental]

Ok, here are my thoughts.  First I will talk about game modes.

 

TDM:

Problem: TDM has a problem with a team gaining the lead and then camping the most optimal spot on the map.  The problems that I see is, if a mech takes damage there is very little consequence for healing back up (orb + tech).  It's very hard to break if they don't NEED to repair.

 

Possible Fix:  Ban repair charges and tech.  It will be much easier to break people's line, thus giving more favor to aggression (I think we can all agree that rewarding action is better than rewarding inaction)

 

MA:

Problem: maps with crappy spawns

 

Possible Fix: Only allow Wreckage, Origin and Front Line

 

Problem: Once you get to the point where you need to triple cap, the game is pretty much over.

 

Possible Fix: Add the score for each game you play.  The team with the most score wins.

 

Siege:

Problem: Matches take too long

 

Possible Fix: Play only 1 match.  Play till a certain score/time.

 

Problem: Use very little of the map, super boring.

 

Possible Fix: ?????

 

Problem: It's a battle of Fat + EMP

 

Possible Fix: ?????

 

Summery:

I think MA is GREAT!

 

Classes:

I think there isn't much a need to limit classes of mechs.  I can see no reason to limit A's and B's.  There MIGHT be a reason to limit C's, but I think MA rewards different things that C's aren't good at.

Edited by LEmental, 31 May 2015 - 11:43 PM.

[Merl61]

Yo so like. Seige is a little long. It'd be cool and all, but MA is tried and true. It works and works well. I would be fine with playing siege in more of a brief scrim style, but not a whole league. MA is just more stable. 

[bkcat1]

TDM is my favorite. It allows battles to happen anywhere on the map, in places that you don't normally fight in in MA or Siege. MA is still more fun and less exhausting than Siege though.

[Elite_is_salty]

I still strongly think that siege is still better than other modes cuz the objectives allow and even force the team to work in unity and with sync. You really don't need to wait more than 10 secs before everyone is looking to join you at the AA or head to gather energy. That's what I like most about the mode. In other modes, teams really have to have high chemistry to be able to coordinate and play effectively when they're not all in the same location.

 

I mean, myself I got to play with some awesome dudes and we jelled since the first time. With the exception of 2 friends in eth0 and inci, 4 other friends are new to the team but we still played incredibly well together and had awesome times.

[Amidatelion]

 

MA:

Problem: maps with crappy spawns

 

Possible Fix: Only allow Wreckage, Origin and Front Line

 

I would straight up quit TPG if this were implemented. The spawns are bad when there's a triple cap on circle maps. You can manipulate the spawns and enforce greater map control by only capping two and watching the third for people leaving and kill them as necessary.