81 replies to this topic

[IareDave]

Death orbs are slightly different for a couple reasons.  They provide significantly less armor (120 compared to 170)

As far as I know all orbs give 120 hp. Since when was this a thing?

[LoC_TR]

As far as I know all orbs give 120 hp. Since when was this a thing?

Nope, death orbs are 120. Item orbs are 170. Just tested it without repair kit. 

[CraftyDus]

June 7, 2015
The day the greater Hawken community learned exactly how item orbs work

[comic_sans]

June 7, 2015
The day the greater Hawken community learned exactly how item orbs work

 

I've been playing for 2 fuzzy years and I didn't know this.  How?  Why is it not documented or differentiated at all?

Edited by &THC& comic_sans, 07 June 2015 - 08:30 PM.

[_incitatus]

Bunch of scrubs.

[LoC_TR]

'tis true. Hawken is a wild horse, not to be tamed. 

[PoopSlinger]

On your list of discussion topics there was no mention of the

!!G2EXCEPTION!!

It doesn't need an explanation.

 

Its what the people want.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I've been playing for 2 fuzzy years and I didn't know this.  How?  Why is it not documented or differentiated at all?

 

This is like:

• The ingame description for the fuel converter says it "converts 2% of damage to fuel". Except there's no "converting" - there's no damage reduction component, it just takes a % of incoming damage and gives you that % value in fuel. Also, the percentage of fuel supplied is not 2%, it's 20%. Why did it say 2% when it's 20%? Magic.
• The Grenadier's ability description says it increases explosive radius and damage. Except it also applies the damage bonus to the Vulcan, which isn't explosive.

There's probably a lot more that I haven't mentioned. The descriptions for abilities and items are either vague or hilariously wrong/outdated.

[CraftyDus]

On your list of discussion topics there was no mention of the

!!G2EXCEPTION!!

It doesn't need an explanation.

 

Its what the people want.

 

I really don't think we should remove the G2 exception.

We've had it for so long now and it's never been a problem.

Unless you can make a thorough tactical depth arguement against (or for) it.

[Amidatelion]

On your list of discussion topics there was no mention of the

!!G2EXCEPTION!!

It doesn't need an explanation.

 

Its what the people want.

 

 

When I find out who put the idea in my head that there is such a thing as a G2 Exception I am going to punch them in the fuzzy bunny.

[LEmental]

Tactical Depth: Orbs

• Coordinated orb drops provide an alternative to withdrawal against superior numbers. Teams can drop multiple orbs on their defensive heavies, for example.

 

How is this a good thing?  If you have less people around you SHOULD lose, or at least have to pull some awesome maneuvers.  Shields/blockades/emp can help split the other team in a WAY more interesting way.

 

• Coordinated orb drops can also be used to bait enemies into attacking.

What? Like I really don't understand this one.  I place traps on orbs as a predator.

 

• Coordinated orb drops on healing teammates quickens their return to the front lines.

The window to which you can execute a killing blow to a mech is very narrow.  This promotes defensive play.  It also promotes unskillful/uninteresting mech rotations.

 

• Orbs, like shields, can be thrown to aid allies who would otherwise be unreachable.

I guess, depending on what weapons you have.

 

• Orbs can be used to reduce the effectiveness of EMPs. If you're unable to avoid an EMP, drop an orb preemptively to help soak the damage. Orbs (like all items) are also affected by EMPs for a shorter duration than your weapons.

So can dodging, using shields and blockades.  Sometimes a det can be used to get the killing blow.  Like if you think you are going to get emped, you are way better off not taking the damage in the first place by running behind cover.

 

• Preemptively drop orbs around a defensive point to improve your odds of holding. Conversely, tossing orbs toward a point you're attacking (say, against a wall where you'll be taking cover) strengthens pushes.

Theoretically turrets should do this, but they are kind of weak.  Overall though, orbs weaking pushes because it's much harder to down a player, creating an imbalance so that one side can snowball.  In a zero sum game, once a resources is removed, it creates a positive feedback loop.  For FPS games, this is a good thing.

 

• Teams fighting prolonged battles must consider their positioning relative to downed enemies and the orbs that they drop.

Yes, this is interesting.  Again, this also promotes the positive feedback loop.  When you get a kill, you get access to healing which aids in getting another kill.

 

Overall, in an even fight, teams will poke each other until they get an edge.  Orbs prolong this by making it much harder to down a mech.  The only way I see orbs to have a huge offensive impact is when the other team doesn't have them, otherwise pokes will just happen naturally in a tactically sound area.

 

Orbs dampin the punishment for stupid play.

 

I think burst will be a lot better in a meta that doesn't have as much healing.
 

Also, I think the 'c' repair payoff is an interesting one.  To heal you give up your radar, movement and weapons.  I argue that orbs take away much of that interesting design.

Edited by LEmental, 08 June 2015 - 12:09 PM.

[spinningchurro]

Is there an updated version of this anywhere?

 

 

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

 

 

This doesn't have the death orb vs. item orb heal amount noted.

[Massive_Assailant_Stingray]

Seriously why don't you guys just run some test pugs.

 

No orb or repkit/extract.

 

No orb.

 

No repkit/extract.

 

Just go run a pug or two with each rule set and see how the game plays. Discussion is definitely important, but you guys should probly also just go play and see if it's more/less fun.

[Nept]

Re: LEmental

 

Now whether you enjoy these tactical considerations is up for debate. What isn't is that they are there.

 

Remember that although you (or your team) may not enjoy certain mechanics, you cannot speak for the league at large, and you may not have its best interests in mind. 

[Dew]

I don't know if it's necessarily OP, but playing against an entire team running MK3 EMP on every mech is the most irritating fuzzy bunny in the world.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I don't know if it's necessarily OP, but playing against an entire team running MK3 EMP on every mech is the most irritating fuzzy bunny in the world.

 

I agree, and I hope the meta doesn't devolve into MK3 EMP spam in the absence of orblording.

[comic_sans]

Man I finally get a handle on Orblording for Jesus Deepz, and now I feel like a donkey in a helmet again.  Nuts.

[_incitatus]

Almost every mech where I've replaced any orbbing internals now feels stronger and more capable in combat lol...

[eth0]

I think I missed where we started banning the internals related to orb lording instead of disabling death orbs.

[Amidatelion]

I think I missed where we started banning the internals related to orb lording instead of disabling death orbs.

Disabling death orbs does very little. You get to carry 3x as many on your person with very little downside. The internals do a much better job across the board.

Sure, banning them all might be excessive. But go out, play a few rounds and see for yourself.

[coldform]

Almost every mech where I've replaced any orbbing internals now feels stronger and more capable in combat lol...

I bet you replaced the now-banned healing mechanic augmentation with armor/speed augmentation.

[eth0]

Disabling death orbs does very little. You get to carry 3x as many on your person with very little downside. The internals do a much better job across the board.

Sure, banning them all might be excessive. But go out, play a few rounds and see for yourself.

 

It doesn't do very little. If you're comparing somebody with item orbs versus one death orb, yes 3>1.

 

I think banning them is excessive. I have seen for myself, thanks.

[IareDave]

This needed to happen tbh. When a game has one blatantly superior build there's little sense in attempting different variations and play styles. At least now there's no clear cut winlord setup and burst mechs get a nice lil' buff.

[PoopSlinger]

 

  I know G2Raider is kind of a running joke in the comp scene 

Orb builds are gone, but dare I ask...  Does that make having multiple G2Raiders a sensible idea to anyone but me?  Does that put the G2Raider on the same competitive level as gren (Vulgren or otherwise), vanguard, incin or the fat fuzzy bunnyng brawler?  Where might be the harm in letting a team try to really push itself competitively with 3 G2Raiders?  You heard it from super MLG pro Turdeye himself, its a joke mech.

 

The G2Exception would also allow for multiple G2As.  But Ive never seen one of those used by a serious team in a super serial TPG match.  Its not even a running joke. 

 

Bring back the G2Exception.  Just say it out loud, theres a nice ring to it, like its a real thing.

 

At least let some teams test it in preseason.

[Elite_is_salty]

Someone should sum the changes/rules/restrictions to me cuz I'm lost y'all!

[Amidatelion]

Bring back the G2Exception.  Just say it out loud, theres a nice ring to it, like its a real thing.

 

There is no "back." It doesn't exist, it never existed. The G2R is a less competitive mech than say a Gren or a Brawler, but Jesus fuzzy bunnyng knows half this fuzzy bunnyng league can make the damn thing work against like a third of the teams. Arguably with the demise of orblording the G2A becomes more viable on open maps.

 

fuzzy bunny the G2 exception and run a gutsy comp if you wanna run a gutsy comp.

[_incitatus]

I bet you replaced the now-banned healing mechanic augmentation with armor/speed augmentation.

 

Well, I only ran extractor.  I replaced it with deflectors and/or fuel converter depending on the original setup.  On a few mechs I totally changed it up, and I added a few more duplicate mechs with different load-outs to my line up.  My fav is hawkins brawler with adv. reconstructor and armor fuser (or whichever one regens health on assists/kills).   In mayhem servers I am constantly generating health, hardly ever have to stop and heal. 

 

I feel like game play is a lot more fun now that a lot of higher level people are dropping the orb lord setup.  It's refreshing.

[comic_sans]

There is no "back." It doesn't exist, it never existed. The G2R is a less competitive mech than say a Gren or a Brawler, but Jesus fuzzy bunnyng knows half this fuzzy bunnyng league can make the damn thing work against like a third of the teams. Arguably with the demise of orblording the G2A becomes more viable on open maps.

 

fuzzy bunny the G2 exception and run a gutsy comp if you wanna run a gutsy comp.

It's like you're a huge party pooper, but you won't call the cops for a noise complaint.

 

Also yeah, these restrictions do make the g2r more viable, but it still doesn't have an airburst weapon and its ability is still kinda gimped.

Edited by &THC& comic_sans, 12 June 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Nept]

Updated OP with the following:

 

Would appreciate some feedback from participating players on our current bans: Repair Kit, Advanced Repair Kit, Basic Extractor, and Extractor.  Thoughts?

[crockrocket]

I like seeing a more diverse array of builds now that orblording has been done away with.

[ThirdEyE]

Pretty good so far.  Orbs still feel very strong, but not overwhelmingly OP like before.

[CraftyDus]

Updated OP with the following:

 

Would appreciate some feedback from participating players on our current bans: Repair Kit, Advanced Repair Kit, Basic Extractor, and Extractor.  Thoughts?

 

 

Orbs are still a very popular item and it's use in matches a top tactic. The sharp of the cheese has been made milder.

[crockrocket]

Orbs are still a very popular item and it's use in matches a top tactic. The sharp of the cheese has been made milder.

 

Hardly surprising given we're doing a point based game mode. Would be interesting to see how it would change for tdm.

[Amidatelion]

In a protracted engagement orbs are still the superior item, but in quick hit and runs, dets and barriers seem to be effective along with the shields/emps standbys.

[CraftyDus]

Hardly surprising given we're doing a point based game mode. Would be interesting to see how it would change for tdm

 

comp tdm

*shudders

[Nept]

TDM Confirmed S4

[coldform]

comp tdm
*shudders

That bad, huh? So, (TDM) is getting lucky by playing MA for our first time in the comp scene?

Well, my limited experience from the try-weeklys would answer that question... Right?

[CraftyDus]

TDM Confirmed S4

 

That bad, huh? So, (TDM) is getting lucky by playing MA for our first time in the comp scene?

Well, my limited experience from the try-weeklys would answer that question... Right?

 

it gets......strategic

 

[Amidatelion]

After a few games last night in DM and against TANG, I'm not sure that the internal ban actually addressed the problem. Certainly, it limited orblording and opened up new common builds, but it did not address the disparity that orblording or now I guess orb stacking introduces to the game.

 

Last night I counted nine orbs on S2 on wreckage at one point. There wasn't a whole lot we were going to get done there to begin with and that sort of defensive set-up just makes the point uncrackable. I see the arguments about tactical flexibility and I buy it, but there's really only one function being used here and that's orb spam.

 

You see it in DM where people are running their TPG mechs too. The dropped orbs with 50 more HP just extend the health of a given mech so much more than when someone has that and a death orb, the difference between that and orblording is appreciable but irrelevant.

 

Therefore I propose removing the internal ban and implementing a ban on orb items, or at least testing this in a Try-Weekly or across teams. 

[TheButtSatisfier]

After a few games last night in DM and against TANG, I'm not sure that the internal ban actually addressed the problem. [...] Last night I counted nine orbs on S2 on wreckage at one point. There wasn't a whole lot we were going to get done there to begin with and that sort of defensive set-up just makes the point uncrackable.

 

First, I'm a member of TANG for disclosure purposes.

 

I don't think that 9 orbs after a Wreckage S2 battle is a clear example that orbs need to be further addressed. 9 orbs at the beginning of a battle would be a bit much. However, if there was a 3v3 rush on S2 with 4-5 total deaths on the point - plus any orb items players used - then I can reasonably expect a small frame of time where 9 orbs will remain. They won't all be fully charged, around half will dissipate within the next 10 seconds, and the only benefit those orbs provide after a battle of that size is helping the surviving team repair more quickly. They'll repair around 2-3 seconds quicker than otherwise.

 

That being said, I'm open to further experimentation on item and internal restrictions like Amid suggested.