46 replies to this topic

[HHJFTRU]

I made 8 random snapshots from herokuapp server list (EU only). The date/time of sampling is on the sheet.

The servers were ordered according to avg MMR, which is unfortunately not shown on the sheet, I used server rank instead which represents how high in the order was the server at the given time.  (1=server with highest MMR).

I would like to highlight (again) that the players of high and low MMR are mixed too much.

I'm sure that the devs can easily do this measurement way better.

 

Edited by someone, 21 October 2015 - 03:40 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Just a problem of low player base.

 

You either block every player from playing (or block the few we have left would be more precise), or you let them play together. Since Hawken is still in beta for years and not ready for launch, noone gives a damn. It's how it is, not even the most experienced "balancer" would be able to match such a low playerbase fair enough compared to successful games.

Edited by FakeName, 21 October 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[HHJFTRU]

Player base is low partly because new players probably face veterans at the very beginning.

And high MMR players don't find matches and use the queue and spread all over the servers (or create smurfs) because there are no servers in their range, because low MMR players draw the server averages down.

Assign bootcamp servers for rookies and unlock the >1900 MMR servers for everyone.

And if noone gives a damn, shut the game down.

Edited by someone, 21 October 2015 - 04:20 AM.

[Amidatelion]

I like the work and I've been conisdering it myself for some time... but the amount of data there is insufficient for real analysis. I was thinking 2 weeks of regular checks, split between 0200-0800, 0800-1500, 1500-1900, 1900-0200, with more active checks during the the weekend.

[HHJFTRU]

The devs can make a query and draw graphs in no time, I guess.

[Anichkov3]

Once again, I am surprised, "Intellect" people who create such forums........

 

I walked away from the game for 2 months. And now I'm back. What happened during these two months? That's what I desperately warned of all (and veterans in particular). Because of the Smurfs, people just simply left out of the game. 

 

And I ask to shut up those who want to contradict me.

 

Just look at the average number of players per month.

http://steamcharts.com/app/271290#6m

 

I will say a few words about unlocking servers. 

Do you ever listen to yourself. Stand in front of a mirror and tell me about it. You do stupid or what? Other explanation I do not have. You know that the maximum waiting time before you connect to the server = 30 seconds?

God, how? how? You can be so short-sighted? What you are asking to share beginners and veterans -  the developer goes towards doing it. Then you start to cry like children - veterans playing three on three (because nobody comes).

God, I have no more words, some emotions to such a person.

???????? ?? ????? ?????!

Edited by Anichkov3, 21 October 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[JackVandal]

I feel that servers specifically for players under a certain hour count could help, Josh said something about 10 days being the point if they stick around, perhaps have servers specific for players till they pass that mark? and along the way point them to the forums, and the team-speak. that way they are protected from the better players (not getting into smurfs, as the ones i know generally aren't there for the stomp) and they get a chance to befriend other players at their level, and get involved with the game so that they stay with it even after they get mixed into general population, obviously if a player is doing to well in these servers they could be locked out by mmr or something, im not sure what level a player would be after 10 days or so.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Wooohooooo

 

How would you address the issues detailed in your post?

[Anichkov3]

blablabla

read the forum, two or three months ago I voiced - how

[TheButtSatisfier]

read the forum, two or three months ago I voiced - how

 

Cool no thanks

[Xacius]

Once again, I am surprised, "Intellect" people who create such forums........

 

I walked away from the game for 2 months. And now I'm back. What happened during these two months? That's what I desperately warned of all (and veterans in particular). Because of the Smurfs, people just simply left out of the game. 

 

Just look at the average number of players per month.

http://steamcharts.com/app/271290#6m

There's no verifiable evidence to indicate that smurfing is responsible for players leaving the game.  Perhaps it's the lack of new content in nearly 2+ years?  Your "reasons" are unfounded.  

[StubbornPuppet]

I left primarily because of smurfs.

There has been nothing done to discourage it - least and easiest of which should be to fix the bug that allows new accounts to skip VR Training.

 

Tertiary reasons:

• Matches with an srd of 1200 - 2500
• Rage quitters who feel at complete liberty and justification to quit and rejoin matches over and over until they are put on the winning team - with nothing to discourage them.
• Too hard to find Missile Assault matches.
• Almost as hard to find Siege matches.

[Anichkov3]

"My reasons" more than justified. Maybe you do not remember how 2 months ago Forum "exploded" because of dissatisfaction with the Smurfs? Ah. Excuse me! You probably just like the vast majority of veterans salute Smurfs.

 

You are not able to see that the game is played by more people than now ?: 4-5 months when we did not know where the developers, when there were no sales (point no changes in the balance sheet). Maybe you (Xacius) had access to the closed alpha test after details? No? meanwhile developers, though clumsily, but people have thrown new details and emblems pilot. And as for the ability to completely control the private server does not remember?

 

So sad to see that veterans still protect the Smurfs.

 

The solution of course is. And the decision I announced to developers. You - miserable veterans protecting Smurfs. Knowing about it is committed is not necessary. Because you will start to squeak as usual. This solution is very tough and quite radical, though elegant. But in reality it bears only a benefit for the community of players and the organization of matches. Certainly nothing to prevent making new Smurfs. But it is possible to eliminate one of the main reasons for their creation.

 

P.S. If we follow your logic. Then the best way to recruit new players this - that the developers completely stopped to chat with the players. No news. Just. Silence. For half a year. And people will come. Did I understand you correctly?

 

P.S.S. If some of the less played "fixed matches", it might be noted that the change in the game for 2+ years. Namely, three completely new mechs with a unique style of play (Technician, Predator, Incinerator). 3 new maps: FrontLine, Facility, LastEco. New game mode: PvE (Coop TDM, Bot Destruction), Explore maps.

Edited by Anichkov3, 21 October 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

P.S. If we follow your logic. Then the best way to recruit new players this - that the developers completely stopped to chat with the players. No news. Just. Silence. For half a year. And people will come. Did I understand you correctly?

 

He said the reason for the general decrease in the Hawken population is because there hasn't been any new content (besides skins or emblems) released in two years. When he says "content" he means maps, weapons, mechs, bigger stuff like that.

 

He didn't mention anything regarding how frequently the developers communicate with the playerbase.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 21 October 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Hyginos]

I feel the need to post this again just to be clear.

 

[Anichkov3]

He said the reason for the general decrease in the Hawken population is because there hasn't been any new content (besides skins or emblems) released in two years. When he says "content" he means maps, weapons, mechs, bigger stuff like that.

 

He didn't mention anything regarding how frequently the developers communicate with the playerbase.

Maube:

 

P.S.S. If some of the less played "fixed matches", it might be noted that the change in the game for 2+ years. Namely, three completely new mechs with a unique style of play (Technician, Predator, Incinerator). 3 new maps: FrontLine, Facility, LastEco. New game mode: PvE (Coop TDM, Bot Destruction), Explore maps.

[TheButtSatisfier]

P.S.S. If some of the less played "fixed matches", it might be noted that the change in the game for 2+ years. Namely, three completely new mechs with a unique style of play (Technician, Predator, Incinerator). 3 new maps: FrontLine, Facility, LastEco. New game mode: PvE (Coop TDM, Bot Destruction), Explore maps.

 

Almost every one of the things you mentioned are older than two years, with a few closing in on 1.5. Again, it has been years since we've had new content. Most popular games today would shrivel up and die if they didn't have new content released (unless they had significant polish before they went stale, which Hawken lacks). Xacius, and I'd say most of the educated playerbase, believes that the lack of new content is the most significant reason why we haven't had an increase in our population.

 

Just for laughs and giggles:

 

Mech release dates:

 

Technician: April 2013

http://www.polygon.c...twitchy-players

 

Predator: October 2013

http://www.pcgamer.c...est-beta-patch/

 

Incinerator: Feb 2014

http://steamcommunit...47287694054346/

 

Game mode release dates:

 

Bot Destruction: October 2013

http://www.pcgamer.c...est-beta-patch/

 

Coop TDM: April 2014

http://www.co-optimu...match-mode.html

 

Map release dates:

 

Last Eco: August 2013

http://www.pcgamer.c...o-the-woodshed/

 

Frontline: April 2013

http://www.biogamerg...ian-update.html

 

Facility: March 2013

http://www.vg247.com...screens-inside/

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 21 October 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Anichkov3]

 

bla bla bla

 

It is sad that you do not learn mathematics. We are talking about the period of 2+ years? No?

everything that you have listed refers to the period of the last 2 years

Question: do you his wife or a lawyer? What right do you have to answer on his behalf?

[TheButtSatisfier]

It is sad that you do not learn mathematics. We are talking about the period of 2+ years? No?

everything that you have listed refers to the period of the last 2 years

 

-_-

 

Date                # of years

4/1/2013         2.56

10/1/2013       2.05

2/1/2014         1.72

10/1/2013       2.05

4/1/2014         1.56

8/1/2013         2.22

4/1/2013         2.56

3/1/2013         2.64

 

 

6 of the 8 citations I provided were over two years. The other two are over 1.5 years.

 

Question: do you his wife or a lawyer? What right do you have to answer on his behalf?

 

The right to respond to a forum post made on a public forum because you decided not to PM him. Plus your arguments are easy pickins so it's hard to resist.

 

Also, for the record: I tried to clarify his first post to help you out. Then you responded with something factually incorrect, so I decided to help educate you by providing citations for the correct information. Then, in your frustration, you accuse me of answering on his behalf.

 

If you want me to satisfy you, you could just ask.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 21 October 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Nept]

Looks like you all got rekt by a superior debater.  Well done, Anichkov3.

[Hyginos]

This solution is very tough and quite radical, though elegant. 

 

I've read all of your posts that I can find immediately and I have yet to find where you have actually proposed a solution. If you could be more clear on that maybe we can have a more meaningful discussion.

 

Also, I suspect we are communicating through google translate or the like, so discretion and simplified wording may be helpful (or necessary) for continued discourse.

[Anichkov3]

It was a test. Well that's hard for you to resist. Carefully listen to your explanation write "2+ years."  

[TheButtSatisfier]

It was a test. Well that's hard for you to resist. Carefully listen to your explanation write "2+ years."  

 

Sure.

[Anichkov3]

I've read all of your posts that I can find immediately and I have yet to find where you have actually proposed a solution. If you could be more clear on that maybe we can have a more meaningful discussion.

 

Also, I suspect we are communicating through google translate or the like, so discretion and simplified wording may be helpful (or necessary) for continued discourse.

 

You're right. I did not bother "correct English (American?) Language." 

I wrote briefly about this. But I have not specifically focused on this. Not to mention that it can be a powerful tool against the opinion of most of the "veterans Smurfs." In order not to breed discus empty - you need it or not. I just wrote directly to the developers. 

After all, if you paid attention in August. There was a lot of discussion. And the most important thing that had to be learned. But why no one said. Pointless to look for a way to punish the veteran smurf. The most important thing was easy. We had to realize that it is bad. And Smurfs are not needed. In order for to play the game - Smurfs are not needed.

And anyone who says otherwise - a liar. A liar and a traitor of the game. Due to the fact that you are protected Smurfs. Therefore, players began to consider that the Smurfs - is right and good.

[Sorroritas]

We should be careful not to confuse cause with consequence here.

 

On topic, thanks for the effort you put into this Mr. Someone.

It shows something I had been noticing for some time now, too.

[TheButtSatisfier]

We should be careful not to confuse cause with consequence here.

 

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

Ignoring that principle could lead to someone arguing that breathing oxygen is the leading cause of rape because 100% of all rapists breathed oxygen. Or drinking water is the leading cause of murder because 100% of all murderers drank water at some point in their lives.

 

In the same vein, smurfing caused Hawken's population decline because smurfing existed during the same period that Hawken's population went into decline.

 

SIMPLE LOGIC GUYS WAKE UP

 

Edit: I thought this was an interesting. From the wiki article:

 

Example 1

The faster windmills are observed to rotate, the more wind is observed to be.

Therefore wind is caused by the rotation of windmills. (Or, simply put: windmills, as their name indicates, are machines used to produce wind.)

 

In this example, the correlation (simultaneity) between windmill activity and wind velocity does not imply that wind is caused by windmills. It is rather the other way around, as suggested by the fact that wind doesn’t need windmills to exist, while windmills need wind to rotate.

 

To compare this with Hawken:

 

The more smurfing observed by the Hawken community (which is very subjective), the lower Hawken's population goes.

Therefore the population decline is caused by smurfing.

 

However, just like the windmill example, it could be the other way around: increased smurfing may have been caused by the population drop. There were fewer appropriate servers for high-level players to join, and using MM to put you in a match was a headache and time-consuming. As a result, the population drop may have induced higher rates of smurfing.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 21 October 2015 - 10:10 PM.

[BlackWarGreymon]

Newsflash for the logically devoid: lack of new content ( mechs, maps, abilities, items etc etc ) = lots of people with fully levelled mechs and accounts > lots of HC with nothing to spend it on and no clear way to progress further = lack of interest in continuing to play = reduced player base + creation of new accounts in order to have a continued reason for playing.

Sure, smurfing may well dishearten rookies and scare them away, however, a smurf does not stay a smurf for very long- a good player can raise their MMR very quickly ( typically, going from 1400 to ~2000 takes about a week or two for a good player, playing a few hours each evening ). Thus, the 'smurf' is no longer able to stomp the rookies as they cannot ordinarily join the same server.

In addition, if said high MMR smurf uses the match maker, it will stick them into any random available server, regardless of the MMR level of the players already there. So, in conclusion, blaming smurfing = foolish and naive. The total lack of player-base and match-making system makes it pretty much impossible for new players to play with just other new players ( or low MMR nooblords ), and also makes it impossible for high MMR players to find matches as they are either locked out, or can't get into the few high MMR servers that are always full.


It's so painfully clear that these are the issues facing what's left of the game, but some people would rather blame smurfing instead of accepting that 2 years without any updates is why the game died on its arse.

Need new mechs.
Need new maps.
Need new weapons and abilities.
Need exploits fixed.
Need open cheaters and exploiters dealt with, especially when the devs have been presented with clear video evidence.
Need new gameplay mechanics ( pick-up dropped items from dead mechs, supply drops, special weapon- play as warship turret through pick ups, deploy a drone as an item for your mech etc etc)
New game modes ( last man standing, protect/capture the bomb or VIP, hardcore mode, single objectives to capture and hold or destroy against the clock- use your imaginations, so many ideas )
Tidy up game play mode menus so they are all on one screen
Update to DX11
Improved tutorial/training mode for new players- make them fight AI bots for more than 2 minutes so they have a better handle on how to pilot their mechs.
Fix voice chat.


By the time the devs actually hire some new staff to work on this^ stuff, there will only be a dozen people left playing the game, I doubt very much they will make back their ~$1 million dollar investment if something isn't done soon.

Edited by BlackWarGreymon, 21 October 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[IareDave]

The issue imo is smurfing, and a poor matchmaking for lower skilled players. yes, I know I've smurfed in the past; but I HAD TO in order to play. Josh fixed the matchmaking for higher MMRs, and you can see its results in the OPs post. Lack of content doesn't seem accurate as the game has plenty of customization with item/internal load outs and mech selection that would last a new player quite sometime until they learned what works and what doesn't.

Lesser skilled players, and I'm talking sub 1800, deserve their own separate matchmaking. Players who haven't figured out the dodge key and how to lock on hell fires shouldn't be going up against me. Hell, even a lot of mid tier players are consistently throwing insults at me and half of the lobby will leave in some instances if I join.

I'm not saying this to gloat (though it's funny as fuzzy bunny) but clearly Hawken has a following of players who don't derive pleasuremeant from playing and learning against better players, but from even matches of players with equal skill. Some guys don't like the fact they can't carry like they used to in lower mmmr lobbies, so to that the only solution I can see is a more advanced matchmaking system that pulls the right players and balances matches live time as the game progresses (40-12s shouldn't be happening)

Edited by IareDave, 21 October 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[Sorroritas]

*blabla*

 

In the same vein, smurfing caused Hawken's population decline because smurfing existed during the same period that Hawken's population went into decline.

 

SIMPLE LOGIC GUYS WAKE UP

*blabla*

What I actually meant was that the population drop is the reason for smurfing. Not smurfing the reason for the population drop.

 

Sure, smurfing may well dishearten rookies and scare them away, however, a smurf does not stay a smurf for very long- a good player can raise their MMR very quickly ( typically, going from 1400 to ~2000 takes about a week or two for a good player, playing a few hours each evening ). Thus, the 'smurf' is no longer able to stomp the rookies as they cannot ordinarily join the same server.

This was true with the regular 2000+ to 2200+ mmr servers being around. That way if someone did extremely well in a match against a 2200mmr player their mmr just skyrocketed. (~8-9 games in these servers with super high score for mmr going up by 50-60 points at once.)

 

Nowadays when having 1700 mmr you can still join 1250mmr avg mmr games and get over 1k score in a tdm match and still gain only 1 digit mmr points.

(At least on EU)

 

Lesser skilled players, and I'm talking sub 1800, deserve their own separate matchmaking.

This. There were several similar suggestions and I guess this would be a good idea.

Loosening the mmr restrictions made high mmr players finally able to play their main and cease playing smurfs, though mid and low tier players face them and get obliterated.

 

BUT

as always the problem is still the low population. Having sub 1800 mmr players have "their own seperate matchmaking" would lock out the higher tier players again leaving them with nobody to play...

 

I don't know any other way around this...

Edited by Sorroritas, 21 October 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

h-h-hey guys? Guys?

Population literally does not matter until the game is ready to be released. High population at this point just means more people having "tried hawken" and having left. That's it. The game won't keep people until it actually works the way a game should work.

Blaming players for playing the game how they want to play it is just being a piss-ass.

The solution isn't "radical" or "elegant". It's finishing the damn game.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 21 October 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[HHJFTRU]

If they unlock the >1900MMR servers, all the high tier player can choose freely from the servers where the high tier players are concentrated and have good matches. Instead of spreading all around by using the queue.

If they make rookie servers at the same time (max 1500MMR and 15 pilot level), the beginners will be concentrated on those servers, not disturbing mid and high tier (by shooting the hull of the battleship with flak cannon or feeding the enemy and in general making the server's MMR lower), and can make the first moves in Hawken without being constantly wrecked.

Thus the mid tier players also will have their own space.

Simple adjustment, profit.

Edited by someone, 21 October 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Lack of content doesn't seem accurate as the game has plenty of customization with item/internal load outs and mech selection that would last a new player quite sometime until they learned what works and what doesn't.
 

 

I should clarify that the reason why I say new content is necessary to expand the population is because it's a newsworthy item that shows up on gaming websites, Steam, etc. When Hawken got acquired by Reloaded there was a big spike in population simply because Hawken was exposed to a much larger audience than it had been during the Great Silence. There wasn't any new content during that period, but the fact that Hawken's name was once again being marketed increased the population (imo).

 

With that in mind, I believe that the only real way to increase Hawken's population is to give it more exposure. I don't think that Reloaded would be dumb enough to try to make a big marketing push before they had put more development work into it - you only get a coming out party once (and has it already happened?) - so creating new content is a means to that end.

 

As for player retention, then yes, we definitely need more than advertising. That's when fixing sticky walls, hellfires, EOC, matchmaking, spectator mode, voice chat, scanner, extractor, repair kit, the delay, air compressor, vulcan XTs, everything like that becomes much more relevant - let alone releasing new content to keep us playing Hawken. But first, we have to get new players.

 

Then we have to keep them.

 

All that being said: I'm still in favor of low-effort fixes to fix matchmaking and reduce the desire to smurf. Without raising 1,000 specters of "how do we optimize matchmaking" threads from the past, I would be DELIGHTED if there were <1900 MMR  and >=1900 MMR servers.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 21 October 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 

If you want me to satisfy you, you could just ask.

 

I actually laughed at this.

[ticklemyiguana]

In tune with my other post, I'm actually not positive Hawken is pulling in any revenue whatsoever right now, and I would believe it if I was told that the only reason the devs are keeping the servers running presently is to maintain the existing community and occasionally, very occasionally, run tests.

In its present state, I genuinely believe that less players is better.

More players put a resource strain on the developers and nearly all drop out after a short while of playing due to ongoing issues - some related to the player base. Those players are unlikely to contribute either to the community or to Reloaded's income, and furthermore are unlikely to pick up Hawken again after it is released.

Once the game is in a more polished state and a real advertising campaign is able to begin/anticipation is ready to be built again, that's when we want players. Right now they're just a drain on resources unless they're the 0.1% that stick around.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 21 October 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[JackVandal]

1st penny, smurfs are fine so long as they can be kind and "gentle" with newer players, and 2nd penny, a set of servers that block out anyone over 1900 or 1800, and that these are to be prioritized by the mm for new players.

 

Least that's my 2 cents,

 

the tip is have mm take the mode into consideration not just the average, so a player cant swing an average to get 1200 2500 spread servers.

[DieselCat]

In tune with my other post, I'm actually not positive Hawken is pulling in any revenue whatsoever right now, and I would believe it if I was told that the only reason the devs are keeping the servers running presently is to maintain the existing community and occasionally, very occasionally, run tests.

In its present state, I genuinely believe that less players is better.

More players put a resource strain on the developers and nearly all drop out after a short while of playing due to ongoing issues - some related to the player base. Those players are unlikely to contribute either to the community or to Reloaded's income, and furthermore are unlikely to pick up Hawken again after it is released.

Once the game is in a more polished state and a real advertising campaign is able to begin/anticipation is ready to be built again, that's when we want players. Right now they're just a drain on resources unless they're the 0.1% that stick around.

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't josh (Reloaded) say early after they took over that they were financially stable with their current investment moneys without any real additional income through sometime next year ?

 

Though I did buy several MC packages over the last few months....  

 

*+ 

[ticklemyiguana]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't josh (Reloaded) say early after they took over that they were financially stable with their current investment moneys without any real additional income through sometime next year ?

 

Though I did buy several MC packages over the last few months....

 

*+ 

He did, absolutely. Actually, more promising than that, he said something along the lines that Hawken was running in a sustainable state (your current wording left the possibility that it was stable due to Reloaded's funding, and not due to the income of the game itself vs the costs it incurs).

 

However, that was after Reloaded significantly downgraded the servers, and immediately after the acquisition, which made a bit of a splash in population and purchases, and it was before they upgraded the servers again, as well as before  they began hiring people (people cost money). I don't have financial data, but on the current playerbase estimates and the fact that the cost of servers has likely gone up due to the upgrades since that statement as well as the size of the team, I would be ready to accept that Hawken is only operating at present due to Reloaded viewing it as a profit in the future.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I think it's really time for another Q&A with Josh.

[Anichkov3]

I did not say that the main reason for leaving the players Smurfs. In addition to the reasons that were quite simple reasons. The beginning of the school year. And that means the beginning of autumn - golden age output for the other games. You're constantly being told one thing - people go out of the game because there's new content. God dammit. Yes, you are like a windmill and air. If it is true. What the hell are you doing here to see prices? Why is it you have not left the game ???

 

And since you have raised this issue. Yes. I read the reviews of several dozen people who have gone out of the game for a while. Why is that? They just talked about. Play impossible. Because of the Smurfs can not play any normal game, the balance of fuzzy bunny.

[spr1nterJam]

TheButtSatisfier see this Anichkov3 reply https://community.pl...fix/#entry54571

you know smurfs are bad

do not try to deny it