17 replies to this topic

[nepacaka]

You know guys, i don't love this internal because it no more than suicidal/zerg-rush internal.
Yes, it planned as a "newbie hekp internal", but in general sense, it is not.

I think I find a nice and easy solution how to change this internal to "survival internal"

instead current:
- On death, receive a 15% damage reduction. Getting 1 kill or 2 assists deactivates the effect.

we shold have:
- receive a 15% damage reduction when you overheated.

(or "when you overheated, recieve a 15% damage reduction". idk how will be correct)

this can give additional armor and survival ability in fight, if you overheat by yourself error, or like counter internal for incin, or counter HeatCharge item.
Also, you can kill someone with last rocket, and overheat, then runaway from enemies with bonus armor, or trying using covers and damage reduction can help you survive.
current overheat time is also different for mechs. like, TV have 4 sec. Brawler have 6. i mean, this internal can working differenct for different mechs.

i think it is really nice idea, which help get rid this suicidal internal, and promotes survival gameplay. What do you think?

[crockrocket]

I really like this idea.

[Merl61]

That is actually an amazing idea. Good work as always Nepa. Josh plz.

[nepacaka]

it is best idea ever, and i think, very easy to implenement. 30 min coding for professional programmer.

[6ixxer]

I can't see a way to really abuse this, as no experienced player wants to overheat, but it could end up as the go to internal for Incin and vanguard.

Imagine rolling in with a vanguard turret blazing and when you overheat you take crazy low damage. Wouldn't that be like -80% total if they stack?

[Amidatelion]

So instead of "rewarding dying" something that is functionally impossible in all game modes but Siege, you reward overheating, a mechanic specifically designed to force resource management?  And this can trigger multiple times as opposed to its current implementation, which is once per life? Not sure this is quite balanced, particularly in light of the heat management abilities of the salt/crt/incin or as you say the heat charge. It's a cool idea, but could use some tweaking and may as well be a new item.

 

The current implementation of composite armour isn't a suicidal/zerg rush/reward for dying. It is a mitigator for negative impact your team suffers for your death. if we insist upon balancing for both low and high tiers, we must acknowledge that noobs are not idiots and that at some point they will realize (if they haven't gone into this already aware) that dying = enemy wins. No one wants to die to the enemy, but it happens. Just like running out of fuel and overheating. 

[nepacaka]

Not sure this is quite balanced

 

maybe 10% instead 15%

 

The current implementation of composite armour isn't a suicidal/zerg rush/reward for dying

 

i see it many times. how raider just press F and attack someone until he dead, than respawn and use the same plan. no covers or something else, they just return for your head with ability, deflectors and 15% armor buff.
the same with siege mode.

 

that dying = enemy wins. No one wants to die to the enemy

 

no. u wrong.
for example, raider tactics (which i told above) working good in TDM in low-lvl pubs. it let you farm points. you team may lose but you earn your 300-400 points. the same with berserk.
i mean, u just attack one enemy, easily kill him in ability, earn points, than die. restore your items (emp|detonators), restore imba press F ability, and continue your farming.
i see this stupid behavior many times in solo random. and i don't think it is good.
 

Edited by nepacaka, 12 January 2016 - 08:21 PM.

[Amidatelion]

maybe 10% instead 15%

 

i see it many times. how raider just press F and attack someone until he dead, than respawn and use the same plan. no covers or something else, they just return for your head with ability, deflectors and 15% armor buff.
the same with siege mode.

 

That's a problem with the player, not the item.

[nepacaka]

That's a problem with the player, not the item.

 

without this internal this tactics not be very effective. cuz you don't have 15% armor (which give you more time to kill one enemy) to survive against several enemies
if players can use it like exploit (or something silmilar, more or less) i think, problem with interanals.
 

Imagine rolling in with a vanguard turret blazing and when you overheat you take crazy low damage. Wouldn't that be like -80% total if they stack?

 

stacking vanguards with tech and composite is less problem? :D
Just Vanguard turret is really strong (if compared with cheap armor which got brawler and rockee)

 

Edited by nepacaka, 12 January 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[nepacaka]

also, Amid, about "this is not item problem"
no. this is really item problem. whole hawken now consists of those little "things"

bunny-hops and fuel-exploits, which allow you maintain a high speed even without fuel, and moving faster than players who don't know (or don't think) about it. because mechanics not obvious.

Air Compressor which most players are simply unable to resist. it can be countered only by another very good player (+ ping, which some times made it just impossible)

Some stupid internals like composite. Wrong description on Fuel converter which is still not fixed.

Ugly maps in different style. Which mostly created for special or universal mech, and not allow you play on mech you want to play sometimes. Which made it absolutely no chance to balance it now, cuz map have different size. or like bunker and HF, which good with rocketeer stacking, but it sux on other maps due stupid HF.

Also, due the speed of some mech, maps now have a "death zone", i.e. if you trying to go through it, u just ded, because u slow.

Stupid C-class balance/gameplay, which lose their dodge and now C-gameplay based on HP, which lead us to C-stacking in siege.


Who want play in this? Maybe such small "things" it is the reason why people don't want play in this stupid game? i suppose, yes.this is the real reasons. Many of that, which made people mad while they trying to play in hawken.


pre-ascention mechanics be more easy for "average player", and more based on tactics and heat/fuel management instead human reaction. and don't have so much exploits and stupid things. devs just need be fix some weapons and added falloff damage, and it was be OK. Now devs need fix tonnes of broken things, which made hawken unplayable for ordinary people.

just think about it. i mean, popularity. and why hawken going down.
those "small things" - it is really important things, because they are = core of hawken.


 

Edited by nepacaka, 12 January 2016 - 08:59 PM.

[Anichkov3]

 

for example, raider tactics (which i told above) working good in TDM in low-lvl pubs. it let you farm points. you team may lose but you earn your 300-400 points. the same with berserk.

This problem is not related to Composite Armor. Your dissatisfaction raider or berserk (and grenadier) - because of their special abilities. And not only. 

In fact, this is just a fighting style - style suicidal. Most people will not abandon him even if you remove the Composite Armor from the game. 

[nepacaka]

In fact, this is just a fighting style - style suicidal. Most people will not abandon him even if you remove the Composite Armor from the game.

 

while you have an opportunity, you will do it.
as i say, without CA this tactics working much more worse, so, you'll stop it, or just die by k/d.

it is like bug with invulnerability in Diablo 3.
or like people break map barriers in hawken. until this hole/exploit exist, people will be used it. if you close hole, people stop use it. because can't.
remember the story with 90% failsafe? it is just the same. while people can, they do.

i don't want see gameplay like this in hawken. it is stupid part of hawken. have no idea why we need continue to keep stupid gameplay, if we can have some better. yeah, i agree, most of players not use this like i say, but...It is not a big deal, if compared with broken incinerator, lol :D

Obviously, i hope devs can do update. And i hope they delete (or trying) fix many of ascension mistakes. because 50% of ascension just exploits and bugs. 
 

Edited by nepacaka, 12 January 2016 - 11:13 PM.

[nepacaka]

also, i think, having internal which working with heat is not bad. it is one of the solid game mechanics, why not?
it seems more interesting for me than current CA which working only 1 time.

[MomOw]

if the damage reduction apply only when weapons are unable to shoot it'll be OK (no exploit with incin' ability).

There will be synergies with reflak and brawler (high heat cooldown), but I don't think it'll be that much of an issue.

I wonder if a reflak raider with ability activated, deflector and an additionnal damage reduction (to flee after overheating) is really above "average" (or closer to an orblord salt ...)

 

As it is only a 1-slot item I'd keep the effet greater than deflector but lower than failsafe, so 15% seems to be OK.

Edited by (KDR) MomOw, 13 January 2016 - 02:35 AM.

[nepacaka]

Incin not overheating when use ability, so it working on it like any other mech (I mean, he have overheat state like other, when his weapon down). But it probably useless for him If he not overheating.

Probably, it should be 10%. If stacking with deflectors 30% summary. But even if you raider or brawler, and you gain bonus armor, you can only runaway in this state.

And, even if "good players never overheating", so it only turn it into newbie-friendly internal, because if you not overheated, this internal not working for you.
But if you can attack group of enemy, kill one of them, then overheating, activate bonus armor+deflectors and runaway...well, it is nothing but skill ;D

In any case it is better than just dying for recharge items and gain 15% armor in siege.

Edited by nepacaka, 13 January 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[Kopra]

Damage resistance is multiplicative.

0.80 x 0.85 = 0.68 = 32% reduction if you have deflectors and a 15% temporary situational on top of that.

[Hyginos]

Damage resistance is multiplicative.

0.80 x 0.85 = 0.68 = 32% reduction if you have deflectors and a 15% temporary situational on top of that.

 

I did some testing a while back and found that it stacked additively (35%), but it was a pretty slapdash measurement done in a few minutes in fight club (had someone boost into a wall and hit them with a TOW, recorded the number) so I'm curious to see where you got your numbers.

[Kopra]

I did some testing a while back and found that it stacked additively (35%), but it was a pretty slapdash measurement done in a few minutes in fight club (had someone boost into a wall and hit them with a TOW, recorded the number) so I'm curious to see where you got your numbers.

Back when Failsafe was 90% I tried Deflectors + Failsafe to get "110%" damage reduction. It didn't work out so, and I've played enough games to have a gut feeling that it was multiplicative, which that combination was at least.

 

I've assumed that all DR sources work the same way. 32% and 35% are both pretty close to eachother, so a slight mistake is easy to miss, both ways.

 

What I think is that before you actually take damage, flags are checked in order that reduce the final damage that you take. Of course, I haven't seen the code so I won't know for sure, but I'd imagine it's the easier method. If it was a product of sums kind of calculation, then I'd see the resistances being additive.

 

This would be really easy to test.

 

Edit: With Failsafe + Deflectors + Composite Armor active, I took 51 damage from KLA at the feet.

 

0.6*0.8*0.85 = 0.408

 

-> 0.408*125 = 51, exactly

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 13 January 2016 - 06:55 AM.