118 replies to this topic

[LadyTiggs]

Comms from CapnJosh:

 

So Hawken is now on Xbox One, PlayStation 4, and PC.  What do we do next?

 

At a high level, we are aiming for a compact content update that should fix or improve upon the existing console builds, while also adding some additional content.  It�s not going to be a massive update, but it should address the most common reports.  We�re hearing controller button mappings are a big deal, framerate and performance could stand some improvements, and, well, we�ve got a good bug list going :) Over time, the goal is to have all 3 platforms running on the same commit number, since that will make code and feature management, release management, and hosting operations a whole lot easier and more efficient.

 

For all the PC platform fans, don�t lose heart!  Big things are in store.  As I mentioned, the plan is to get all the platforms up to feature parity, and then advance them all forward at the same time.  This provides a larger audience for all the Hawken goodness, and it means Hawken has a stronger foundation from which to build.  The PC environment has a really big data migration ahead of it, but that is just a matter of time.  I�m holding off on specifics until after we get through the console launch and solidification process, but do know that we take the PC experience very seriously.  We�ve heard the comments and suggestions, so rest assured none of that is being ignored.  In fact, keep it coming � there have been some excellent analyses of the pros and cons of a wide range of design possibilities, and we actually do take those seriously.  Again, nothing is dismissed out of hand ;)

 

A bit about the submissions process in the console games world.  It can take a long time.  Like, we will be planning on 3-4 weeks from the point where we first submit a build for certification testing to the point where that build is actually launched.  Over time, we should be able to reduce that duration, but especially up through the first few post-launch updates we will need to leave enough time for back-and-forth with the official certification testing teams at Sony and Microsoft.

 

What does that mean for timelines?  It means that right now we have a few short weeks to finish all the work and regular QA, send it all off to submissions, and then start work on the *next* content update well before *this* content update ever launches.  One of the biggest challenges will be to manage the mental context-switching that will be required to sustain these parallel efforts, particularly given the small team size, and especially when some sort of proverbial fire breaks out, wherever that may be.

 

Once we get through the first full week or two of Hawken being live on both PS4 and Xbox One, I�ll try to write up some of the interesting problems that come up when scaling out to thousands of game-server instances.

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

It means that right now we have a few short weeks to finish all the work and regular QA, send it all off to submissions, and then start work on the *next* content update well before *this* content update ever launches.

 

At any point could we please get patch notes?

[KejiGoto]

So the plan is still to make the PC version like the console version?

 

Can we change the plan or just not go through with that plan? Can't we wait a bit longer to see how well Howken is received on consoles before we try to push all three platforms to the same point? I mean it's been 2+ years since we saw any worth while update on the PC so let's not rush anything here until the issues and so forth are ironed out with the console port. 

 

You say that no feedback is dismissed outright yet none of the feedback we've ever given seems to have made it into Howken. Not even feedback CapnJosh himself gave about the perceptions of Hawken and P2W seems to have made it into Howken. So I my reservations about any feedback actually being taken seriously outside of praise and what not.

 

And instead of an interesting story about the thrills of scaling out to thousands of game server instances how about a proper write up on what is to come for the PC version and what all these changes actually mean for the PC version that we've seen in the console version. From the sounds of what has been described the PC version is going to be having your cake and eating it too with it supporting all aspects of Hawken past and present? In case you've missed it there's a ton of confusion going on about this.

 

Oh and your website needs to be updated cause things still aren't working and a ton of information isn't available.

PS: Stop separating the forums, you're only making problems worse and aren't doing yourself or your communities any favors. No other game does this like this and it comes across like you're trying to hide the PC community and act like we don't really exist.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

Awesome.  Another update where absolutely nothing of value was provided.  Thanks for trying tho!  Keep up the effort, and maybe, just maybe, you'll stumble upon something that almost resembles a concrete detail.

[snoopy187]

go Hawken!  hope therez good stuff on da way. 

[nepacaka]

Good. Wait.

[Shade__]

Will the neif be nerfed? because that ability look dumb as fuzzy bunny...

[DerMax]

>didn't remove scanner

>didn't fix last eco and bunker

>didn't fix map out-of-bounds pathways

>introduced nief

>introduced a suicide internal that promotes dying

>gave brawler and vanguard orblord

>removed much of customization

>doubled down on vertical progression

>made ui look like a cheap android app

>no new maps; removed test arena

>no new game modes

>no improved cockpit

>no spectator mode

>no extra private server functionality

>same stupid stars showing server rating

>were silent for months

>literally ignored every single suggestion ever made on the forums

 

But keep them suggestions coming, folks! You are listened to!

Edited by DerMax, 14 July 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[CounterlogicMan]

A more extensive Q & A would go a long way at this point. Appreciate the work you guys are putting in though. The console version is the most fun I have had playing Hawken since the last TPG season.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

Tell us about new content that is currently being worked on, like a new mech. Maybe show us a screenshot!

What new content are you planning to add next?

Give us a roadmap!

 

On another note, why does the "Charge" mech have two miniflaks, instead of one mini"flak" and one different "flak", like a t-32.

Why not give to similiar but different weapons instead of two identical ones? This goes for Assault, "Nief" and "36M", too.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

A more extensive Q & A would go a long way at this point. 

 

 

They are willing to do that.  Just as long as you sign an NDA first.  Or did you mean to suggest they should participate in a more extensive Q&A without an NDA attached?

[BIsmuthZornisse]

They are willing to do [A more extensive Q & A].  Just as long as you sign an NDA first.

How is that supposed to work? That doesnt sound like the us (the playerbase as a whole) actually getting answers, so what would the point be? Maybe i'm being too stupid, but i need an explanation.

[nepacaka]

>didn't remove scanner
>didn't fix last eco and bunker
>didn't fix map out-of-bounds pathways
>introduced nief
>introduced a suicide internal that promotes dying
>gave vanguard orblord
>removed much of customization
>doubled down on vertical progression
>made ui look like a cheap android app
>no new maps; removed test arena
>no new game modes
>no improved cockpit
>same stupid stars showing server rating
>were silent for months
>literally ignored every single suggestion ever made on the forums

But keep them suggestions coming, folks! You are listened to!

Since last times I understand one simple thing. Reloaded are not the same with adhesive or meteor. Original hawken devs will be a "developers" team. They can coding new things, and making models. Reloaded can make a "mod" based on current hawken engine, like changes some numbers in table, and copy part of code. It's mean, they can rebalance it, moving weapons and make mechs based on "presets", but they can't develop it. I.e. They can't fix exploits, they can't change game mechanic alot, they can't making many other things, only tune it. So...we probably never see fixes of problems in your list. This is sad, and we only can "deal with it".

Even if reloaded know how to turn hawken in a "super best game in the world", they just simply can't make it. Even if they agree with community suggestions.

Edited by nepacaka, 11 July 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

How is that supposed to work? That doesnt sound like the us (the playerbase as a whole) actually getting answers, so what would the point be? Maybe i'm being too stupid, but i need an explanation.

 

We all would like an explanation.  But if you reach out to Tiggs, she can set you up with a personal conversation with Josh.  So long as you sign an NDA first.  This is how Reloaded thinks they should communicate with their playerbase.

[Chiraq_stylez]

ok, great follow up. I got an question, when the MC points for 29.00 dollars go change in the microsoft xbox store it should be 19.00 dollars. Releasing of other content that we console players havent played with yet.,the nief mech is release fully on playsttion but xbox its seem no where to be found.

[harmless_kittens]

PC forum people still believing that their 100 voices (including mine) really matter.  

 

Priceless.

[PoopSlinger]

If we keep throwing hissy fits maybe they'll let the forums come together at last!  Get over yourselves.  At this rate I think its actually good they are segregating the new playerbase from these people.

 

This doesn't seem to be the best as far as communication goes, but we complain if they don't put out updates.

[Onebullit]

 

But keep them suggestions coming, folks! You are listened to!

Why was my post deleted LOL, what a joke.

 

All i heve posted was,

 

"What are you talking about, ofcourse they listen."

 

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

PC forum people still believing that their 100 voices (including mine) really matter.  

 

Priceless.

 

Cool. Stop posting then.

[MomOw]

PC forum people still believing that their 100 voices (including mine) really matter.  

 

Priceless.

 

[Xacius]

Even if reloaded know how to turn hawken in a "super best game in the world", they just simply can't make it. Even if they agree with community suggestions.

Not true.  They have access to the game's original code.  They spent months getting everything up and running and can create new builds just like ADH could when they were in charge.  

Edited by Xacius, 11 July 2016 - 01:31 PM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

PC forum people still believing that their 100 voices (including mine) really matter.  

 

Priceless.

 

What's priceless is how you went from relatable skrub to anti-smurf Margaret Thatcher in the span of a few bad threads

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 11 July 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[Miscellaneous]

PC forum people still believing that their 100 voices (including mine) really matter.  

 

Priceless.

 

It's pretty obvious by now that the devs don't care about our voices. People are getting upset because they should. This is a game we've all played for years. This is a game we love. That we've invested time and money into, and wish to do so more. We don't want to see our game bagged and tagged like every other F2P FPS around nowadays. So we make some noise about it. We get angry, and rightfully so, because what the devs have been doing so far doesn't seem like they're going in any resemblance of the right direction.

 

We want the game we love to succeed, why should we sit down and be quiet when it looks like it isn't going to?

[nepacaka]

Not true. They have access to the game's original code. They spent months getting everything up and running and can create new builds just like ADH could when they were in charge.

Charge = 2 already created weapons + bruiser clone ability with different numbers.
Probably, nief based on ADH g2-berserk concept (I think it should be AR+seeker+firerate ability)

They can't make a really new weapon with new mechanism of work. Probably, if we see some new weapons in future, it was based on previous ADH (or meteor) work/ideas which just not implement due to ADH ded.

I'm not sure your answer is a sarcastic or not :P

To be honest, I want see some of new weapons, even if it will be just "another shotgun". Just right now hawken have probably all typical weapons + their combination. We have 4 shotgun, 5-6 machineguns, rifles, some sort of unique weapons like EOC/heat, 3 GL, and their mixed combinations (like Korsair). It is really alot if compare with other fps games. Just you can use only 2 in one time :)
Maybe devs want focus on general hawken aspect, but...I think no. Well, we probably can't know it in nearly future, because when/if devs start making new mechs, I'm 90% sure we see only already existed mechs (like Ord, hon etc.) with already existed or unused weapons (like SA-hawkins or stupid x2 weapons mechs)

[CZeroFive]

Since last times I understand one simple thing. Reloaded are not the same with adhesive or meteor. Original hawken devs will be a "developers" team. They can coding new things, and making models. Reloaded can make a "mod" based on current hawken engine, like changes some numbers in table, and copy part of code. It's mean, they can rebalance it, moving weapons and make mechs based on "presets", but they can't develop it. I.e. They can't fix exploits, they can't change game mechanic alot, they can't making many other things, only tune it. So...we probably never see fixes of problems in your list. This is sad, and we only can "deal with it".

Even if reloaded know how to turn hawken in a "super best game in the world", they just simply can't make it. Even if they agree with community suggestions.

 

We have access to everything - code, game, database, etc - and can modify just about anything. The problem is (was?) the content pipeline that Hawken had prior was not a sustainable pipeline and a lot of work was put into making a framework that is functional and practical so we can provide regular content updates.

 

Regarding the quoted list - We have discussed issues like these internally (Nief, Orblording, etc) and when we find the perfect way to deal with the issues, we will inform the community of our plans to do so. This is all while tackling more pressing issues that actually require more time investment for long-term results, such as client/server performance (framerate in particular) and bugfixes.

[Flifang]

Ah yes, after years of pleading and begging for info we finally get semi-regular updates from the team. Some of you then go and complain that the info isn't good enough. What ever happened to "all we need is proof things are still going forward and that you are still here" nonsense? I guess more people are on my ingame fuzzy bunny list. You will feel the full force of this mid-tier troll.

 

Thank you Tiggs and Josh for the info. It's good to know that while an update build is being tested, you might already be working on more updates for the sony and microsoft people to test after. I can imagine that depending on how many fixes you do, you could easily have 3 updates backed up while also working on another. Thank you for explaining to us how this process works so that we will understand the reason why updates are slow to be rolled out and so that we can still have hope.

 

I apologize for some of the people on the forums who have a complete inability to read between the lines. It's a shame they will just continue to hate you because their reading comprehension is so below average. 

Edited by Flifang, 11 July 2016 - 03:58 PM.

[LRod]

Thanks Tiggs and Cap'n Josh...a "tip o' the hat" to you both for the update.  Might not answer all of my questions, but I'm still glad to hear from you guys, so keep working on cranking them updates out!

[KejiGoto]

 

Regarding the quoted list - We have discussed issues like these internally (Nief, Orblording, etc) and when we find the perfect way to deal with the issues, we will inform the community of our plans to do so. This is all while tackling more pressing issues that actually require more time investment for long-term results, such as client/server performance (framerate in particular) and bugfixes.

 

A good way to fix stuff like that isn't to make the problem even worse by forcing mechs to play the super orb lord game thanks to slowing down dodge speeds and so forth. Removing customization also makes issues like this even worse because you're limited on what you have available depending on which mechs you unlock.

So instead of being able to do something like equip an EMP to toss at the orb lording jerks in order to shut down their weapons and everything so you can try to push them off the repair orb or being able to drop a Shield to block incoming damage from the Nief when it pops that ridiculous ability you're stuck with whatever the new team decided would be the "optimal" load out for a mech.

 

Also introducing internals that were never added into Hawken because they make issues like orb lording far worse is not how you fix an issue.

 

This doesn't require the "perfect" solution, it needed to have some thought put into it before such decisions were made. Perhaps even getting some insight from people who have been playing the game for 4+ years and probably know the game better than most of the development team because most anyone here could have told you the problems you're now currently facing when this was just a design idea on a piece of paper or whatever.

 

So it's great that you guys are aware that there are problems but these could have easily been avoided by not implementing things which make existing problems worse.

 

Pro tip for the future but making tweaks to the existing formula will render far better balancing than overhauling and needlessly changing everything just for the sake of changing everything to put your mark on it. Hawken is pretty well balanced on PC and just needed some minor tweaking with things like internals and abilities but for some reason Reloaded decided to throw all that out and start from scratch by playing into certain problems and are now wondering why these problems still exist.

[Kindos7]

Thank you Tiggs and Josh for the info. It's good to know that while an update build is being tested, you might already be working on more updates for the sony and microsoft people to test after. I can imagine that depending on how many fixes you do, you could easily have 3 updates backed up while also working on another. Thank you for explaining to us how this process works so that we will understand the reason why updates are slow to be rolled out and so that we can still have hope.

 

Except that information applies to the release of the game on console, not on PC. And for some reason they don't want to mix the two (moving threads, locking access to the console version of the forums), so it problaby shouldn't even be here (by their own rules). Still, if that's all the information you could get out of the update with a (supposedly) better reading comprehension than the rest of the community, there's still not much information in it.

 

Which is fine, if there isn't anything to talk about. But with so many questions floating around, and the release of the game on consoles, I find it hard to believe that they said all they had to say.

 

Maybe they can't. Maybe later. Maybe.

[Sylhiri]

Comms from CapnJosh:

 

We�ve heard the comments and suggestions, so rest assured none of that is being ignored.  In fact, keep it coming � there have been some excellent analyses of the pros and cons of a wide range of design possibilities, and we actually do take those seriously.  Again, nothing is dismissed out of hand ;)

 

Is that something that can even be proven?

[BlackWarGreymon]

Not true.  They have access to the game's original code.  They spent months getting everything up and running and can create new builds just like ADH could when they were in charge.  

They just don't want to.

 

*runs away and hides*

 

 

 

Is that something that can even be proven?

 

I seem to recall someone saying they were talking to Tiggs during an XBone live-stream, and Tiggs stated that they can't always listen to the PC players and implement their ideas, then she stopped responding. Really instils a deep sense of confidence when they ignore 2 years worth of discussion and suggestions, and just implement whatever half baked ideas they dream up after listening to their unskilled and inexperienced play-testers, who seem to have missed 95% of the bugs and exploits that have been covered a billion times in various threads and videos...

Edited by BlackWarGreymon, 11 July 2016 - 05:54 PM.

[hestoned]

thanks for the info. at this point ive kinda stoped stressing so much about the coming update but its still hard to deal with. anytime i play pc hawken all i can think is how this might be the last time i see this design. ill never see this ui again. this mech combo well never be played again. its kinda depressing man. i still remember how fun it was in alpha when we had like 2 maps. we may never see winter prosk or eco and marvin the yeti again. i feel like im really losing a part of my life. ive put so much time into this game and met so many cool people through here.

 

i heard a funny quote about a movie remake on youtube that i think fits here.

"its like if your dad died but then a clown put on his clothes and was like haha look im your dad! isnt this fun!?!!!"

 

if i were rich i would fund the pc servers my self but the game needs to make money. so i guess heres to a couple more years of hawken

[Flifang]

Except that information applies to the release of the game on console, not on PC. And for some reason they don't want to mix the two (moving threads, locking access to the console version of the forums), so it probably* shouldn't even be here (by their own rules). Still, if that's all the information you could get out of the update with a (supposedly) better reading comprehension than the rest of the community, there's still not much information in it.

 

Which is fine, if there isn't anything to talk about. But with so many questions floating around, and the release of the game on consoles, I find it hard to believe that they said all they had to say.

 

Maybe they can't. Maybe later. Maybe.

Okay, then riddle me this. If it's so important to point out that they're not talking about the PC hawken now, then why is everyone and their mother looking at the issues almost exclusively from the perspective of high level competitive play? We need to step out of the PC shoes and analyze this with the understanding that console play and Pc play are fundamentally different and that the players who are getting into the console version of the game for the most part won't pick up all the game's nuances right away. None of them will have the G2s right away, and most of them won't care about a UI from a very recently released free to play game having something left to be desired when the gameplay and visuals are the way they are.

 

As far as sectioning off the forums, I know exactly why they did it. It's because a player not familiar with the forums would be hard pressed to find any sort of useful information about the game. They re-balanced it (not necessarily well), and with how the atmosphere here has gotten in the last couple of weeks they probably don't want people chased away because literally a handful of people in the sea of silent players who plain don't visit the forums despite having played for as long as quite a few of us can't seem to understand the the concept of NDAs and the complete and very likely re-balancing of the changes they made that they very well may have had zero say in because the console companies have them by the balls. They can't make anything or say anything unless they give the okay. It's also not extremely hard to access the console forums. You literally need to just make a separate account and users have done this already.

 

With your counter jab at my "supposed" higher reading level, I will point out I stated at the end I believed that some of the users here have issues with reading into what's presented, not the whole community. I usually try to avoid chalking up everyone in my comments to one thought because Iv'e had people get pretty salty assuming I was referring to them, when I wasn't. But you know if you clearly read my post you would have seen that little detail.

 

This last bit is for everyone. I really wish you all would understand that we're getting more info about what's going on than a lot of big games will allow for. Sure, you get patch notes on a good many of them before hand, but that's in no way a standard in the gaming world. You don't hear all about patches before they happen, you hear what was fixed for the most part after a patch drops. This isn't WoW. There's no massive playerbase to try and leverage a huge company into giving juicy tidbits or complete reveals about upcoming content. We're a tiny, puny little group of veteran players in a game that less than a million people in this world could recognize by name. They make the rules here, and what they say goes. You can't call them out on not moving their own posts to the console forums because what they're saying mirrors what a post or thread was when it was moved. They have absolutely no fuzzy bunnyng incentive to keep us around in a business sense. We aren't a significant source of income, and we aren't doing previous conceptions of how nice this community any favors now a days. They don't have to lie about caring about what we say here. They don't. If they wanted to, they could completely sack the PC game all together. They haven't though yet, so put on your big boy pants all you who suddenly after long hiatuses appear again and feel entitled to info they don't need to give you. Suck it up.

 

Edit: Probably* FTFY

because I'm grouchy today

Edited by Flifang, 11 July 2016 - 06:20 PM.

[CraftyDus]

Sounds like the default control remapping and neif adjustment will be addressed.
Those were the only 2 real issues I've encountered in leveling to 20 on Xbox so far.
Charge is in a nice place even with the closest range of any mech ever.
Vanguard with the bby bear is also a well executed balance rework compared to PC version.
The new gren has a very low rate of fire even with staggering the dual revolvers. That might need an increase if it wants to have a place closer to the more mainstream mech options. For now it's tre boutique, and I'm enjoying the challenge of making it do work.

The custom controller mapping will really increase the console population's enjoyment and deepen their experience in the long term.
I see console hawken has been received well despite these few addressable kinks.


PC fam needs chill. Some are full tilted. Others are rushing to judgement before putting some playtime in the new builds.
I can understand passionate and obsessive nerd-dom over-reacting to the premise their object of identity might only survive with alterations beyond their control.
But blind rage and uninformed vitriol can't help.

Put some hours into the new content before dismissing it in its entirety.
Or at least before deciding to make wild assertions in print that are provably false.
Hawken's legacy and future are important to everyone involved.
It's obviously being given a great deal of attention.
Perhaps we could temper our observations of any new changes with the dignity our experience as players can afford them.

[LadyTiggs]

A more extensive Q & A would go a long way at this point. Appreciate the work you guys are putting in though. The console version is the most fun I have had playing Hawken since the last TPG season.

 

We're planning on it, we are just trying to get the consoles stable and we'll do a Q&A

[LadyTiggs]

We all would like an explanation.  But if you reach out to Tiggs, she can set you up with a personal conversation with Josh.  So long as you sign an NDA first.  This is how Reloaded thinks they should communicate with their playerbase.

 

No, that's how we are able to communicate when we're discussing items that are under an NDA. 

 

 

At any point could we please get patch notes?

 

 

When PC is updated, there will be patch notes. 

[crockrocket]

No, that's how we are able to communicate when we're discussing items that are under an NDA.




When PC is updated, there will be patch notes.

Well at least now we know there's still an active NDA

[ArchMech]

i blame the lines in the sand that say such and such about such things and such and the sign saying do not cross, thanks to whichever philosopher or person of historical note who thought that one up

 

pre-release NDA's are important, for now the ones regarding development of PS4 and xbone hawken are mostly relaxed from what i heard

as i can gather from the outside that means theres still one for the PC release

 

so heres the question then, if we go under NDA will you let us playtest stable PC builds pre-release?

is there a stable pre-release pc build?

and then heres the problem, you cant talk about it can you?

 

thus journalism is defunct

 

ultimately the problem lies truly in that none of the release dates were in sync 

 

speculation:

the release dates were probably handed down from microsoft and sony likely way ahead of any schedule RLD can keep with a small team, and they are likely under an NDA that says they cant say things like that

 

also in regards to speculation that RLD is incapable of new builds of hawken, josh stated early on be4 there was any talk of console release that they are using team city for a build system and have all the pipelines in order for content creation and such

Edited by ArchMech, 11 July 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[KejiGoto]

Well at least now we know there's still an active NDA

 

Not sure why it took so long to confirm they are still under an NDA...

[ArchMech]

Not sure why it took so long to confirm they are still under an NDA...

layers?

*shrug*