153 replies to this topic

[nepacaka]

Also, keep in mind that the Incinerator absorbs teammates heat

 

it's not enough for use saare with bby. but, at the same time saare is always has a maximal potencial with ppa

 

Incinerator is a *support* mech, remember?

 

in current state he is a perfect damage dealer, better working in siege modes, where inci no need moving alot and he can fight in one place.

 

Saying it never overheats implies a pilot can never overheat it, which is false.

if someone can not, it does not mean that others can not. it is still a problem.

 

 

and it does take skill to use it effectively, as with any other weapon

 

but, if i have a master-skill with Assult rifle, i can deal 100% for 10 seconds, and then i need some time for cooling myself. that mean i can shoot 10 second, than can not shoot 5 second.

when i have master-skill with PPA, i can shoot 10 second, than i can continue shoot in next 5 second while enemy is waiting his cooling time. so, i always have a 150% damage. (approximately)

 

both of weapon needed a nice skill to deal massive damage. but why ppa should have a higher potencial? just because?

 

it will be balanced well if summary DPM (damage per minute) of both weapon will be equal. but now PPA have a much more DPM number. due to the possibility to fire continuously. such a possibility exists.

[Anichkov3]

 

in current state he is a perfect damage dealer, better working in siege modes, where inci no need moving alot and he can fight in one place.

Can at the same time remember that it is not the only one? Sniper, Reaper, Predator, just can not fight moving from one position .... Can they also rework weapon?

Admit it, you just do not like that he did not like all the other mechs? The fact that he is one "collects" heat in the game? 

Endless shooting? I offer a simple and elegant solution - to introduce counter projectiles SAARE, after which the weapon fur "rechargeable."

You can reduce the damage from weapons incinerator ... but remember the important details, it can not be like all the other the mechs to take and start shooting at the enemy from both guns. So productive and to arrange it very difficult for an ambush. He can not leave unnoticed because of the angle and reward you 200 damage first shot.

And a few words about the weapon. Not every mech in the game can be successfully used a combination of all three of his arms. Many competitive with only one or two combinations. Why so much negativity is to incinerators?  PPA is the best choice, MMA has the right to life because it gets very hot enemy. These are two different styles of fighting. One - the destruction, the other to suppress. Yes, you need to stick in both cases an average distance (but you can move closer to the enemy as much as possible).

[Derpy Hooves]

THIS IS TERRIBLE. Stop suggesting things if you have no idea what you're talking about.

Aye, Incin is a tempermental beast, just balancing the heat/dispersal with the PAPA is an understaking in it's own right. To those saying it makes the nader redundant simply haven't played either mech effectively, the two can actually cancel one another out.

[Grollourdo]

i m gonna stay with my sugestion 

[Grollourdo]

 

 

 

This was a suggestion I made in a previous thread talking about the incin+tech combo

I posted these ideas to balance out the incin on the battle field. 

Hey ok I just thought of something why not the incin can strip out heat from enemies too I mean come on its kinda logic if u absorb heat how can it be absorbed pricisely from specific mechs? Lol of course the incin can give the heat back with its ability but it could still take it again XD this could be cool since then players can take advantage of the enemy incin get it? 

Then if there are two incins in different teams then in a team fight the invins will strip off the heat of all nearby heat which could be shared between both incins depending on how much of the heat is there and how close the incins are to the heat sources XD

Then, incins can also steal heat from enemy incins which is kinda nagating the enemy heat supporter for the team

Enemy incinn can also take the heat in the other incin which becomes a conflict between who could take the heat and negate it from the enemy if this makes sense. This would reenforce the incins supportive aspect and gameplay

Then maybe we can also criple all incins to take damage if they have too much heat XD this could also be played with using tactics letting the enemy take ur heat so he takes damage or something get me? 

 

[Derpy Hooves]

 

 

 

 

This was a suggestion I made in a previous thread talking about the incin+tech combo

I posted these ideas to balance out the incin on the battle field. 

Hey ok I just thought of something why not the incin can strip out heat from enemies too I mean come on its kinda logic if u absorb heat how can it be absorbed pricisely from specific mechs? Lol of course the incin can give the heat back with its ability but it could still take it again XD this could be cool since then players can take advantage of the enemy incin get it? 

Then if there are two incins in different teams then in a team fight the invins will strip off the heat of all nearby heat which could be shared between both incins depending on how much of the heat is there and how close the incins are to the heat sources XD

Then, incins can also steal heat from enemy incins which is kinda nagating the enemy heat supporter for the team

Enemy incinn can also take the heat in the other incin which becomes a conflict between who could take the heat and negate it from the enemy if this makes sense. This would reenforce the incins supportive aspect and gameplay

Then maybe we can also criple all incins to take damage if they have too much heat XD this could also be played with using tactics letting the enemy take ur heat so he takes damage or something get me? 

 

 

incin+tech combos aren't a big threat if you plan accordingly. Kill the ankle biter, then work on the fat bear. Nothing hard about that at all. Anyone who claims to have trouble with them needs to revisit their strategy.

[Grollourdo]

incin+tech combos aren't a big threat if you plan accordingly. Kill the ankle biter, then work on the fat bear. Nothing hard about that at all. Anyone who claims to have trouble with them needs to revisit their strategy.

 

 

i completely agree with you but i think on  this point ( i normally dont like crippling mechs and all because i think all the mechs in hawken are very balanced) 

but here i think just a little modification woudnt hurt XD

[nepacaka]

I offer a simple and elegant solution - to introduce counter projectiles SAARE, after which the weapon fur "rechargeable."

 

this is almost equal ordinary heat management. with this you can shoot constanly, so you just need waiting several secpnds untill saare reloaded. if you continue shooting from primary you overheated.

So, where the different.

With your suggestion incinerator also start have a "hidden problem" with ability to consume heat.

 

When you saare starting reloaded, you can't cooling yourself, right?. so, if you starting reloading while you have 90-95% overheat, you nearbly teammates always will overheat you, because you can't cooling. It's a "logical error" in your concept. Design like this is broken, and has not obvious at first sight defects.

 

My concept don't have this defect, because it does not extend beyond the general core gameplay.

 

also, you idea with "SAARE bullet" has no affect on primary weapon, which actually have some problem too.

 

 

The fact that he is one "collects" heat in the game?

 

yes, but problem more complex than you told. I'm talking about the specific problems that the incinerator can cause in random battles. and does it all the time. But you prefer funny overheat system (which cause many headaches), rather than rework inci and solve alot of problem with balance in future, and solve all curent problems.

 

You are trying to struggle with consequences of the disease, rather than liquidate its root cause.

 

Not every mech in the game can be successfully used a combination of all three of his arms. Many competitive with only one or two combinations. Why so much negativity is to incinerators?

 

 

yes. you are right.

- rocketeer and grenadier with heat have a problems

- brawler with vulcan actually rare mech (cuz gren)

- bruiser with AR have a problem

and some other weapon combinations.

 

But...THIS TOPIC about INCINERATOR, not about other mechs problems.

 

Why so much negativity is to incinerators?

 

because this mech can be better, than we have right now!

 

 

So productive and to arrange it very difficult for an ambush.

 

he is no need use ambush. just shoot in corner, when enemy trying puts out the nose, they gain damage from splash. Just stand on AA and shooting in place from which enemies come. several incinerators in one team amplify this effect.

Edited by nepacaka, 01 April 2015 - 03:49 AM.

[nepacaka]

incin+tech combos aren't a big threat if you plan accordingly. Kill the ankle biter, then work on the fat bear. Nothing hard about that at all. Anyone who claims to have trouble with them needs to revisit their strategy.

 

here is more simple solution, use charged Heat-cannon and kill both of them :P

even if tech hide from corner

Edited by nepacaka, 01 April 2015 - 03:38 AM.

[Grollourdo]

lol yep XD

[Derpy Hooves]

i completely agree with you but i think on  this point ( i normally dont like crippling mechs and all because i think all the mechs in hawken are very balanced) 

but here i think just a little modification woudnt hurt XD

The entire meta behind the Incin is heat build up and release. Take that away and you starve the mech of it's base meta, SAARE is only effective as long as the heat is there to keep firing, you complain of the AoE heatsink passive ability, when that passive ability in the wrong hands can kill an incin. Balancing your build up and purge is the key to success in the Icin. What your asking to do to the Incin would be the same as stripping the Rev-GL from the nader, your asking to remove what the mech thrives on.

 

As they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Grollourdo]

The entire meta behind the Incin is heat build up and release. Take that away and you starve the mech of it's base meta, SAARE is only effective as long as the heat is there to keep firing, you complain of the AoE heatsink passive ability, when that passive ability in the wrong hands can kill an incin. Balancing your build up and purge is the key to success in the Icin. What your asking to do to the Incin would be the same as stripping the Rev-GL from the nader, your asking to remove what the mech thrives on.

 

As they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

Verry good point but what about my suggestion from earlier ?

 

to balance it out a bit?

 

because i thin the incin is just a tiny bity bit unbalanced ..... balance it out by giving the other team a little advantage and therefore creating a downfall to compensate for your advantages no? XD

[nepacaka]

because i thin the incin is just a tiny bity bit unbalanced

 

most of problem in game modes in which inci used for play.

 

it's have a nice balance in 1vs1 fight, but he starting ruined game when you have, for example, several inci in one team. or if you trying play 3vs3 when one team have tech+inci, and other team not. it's working correctly only if two team have a the same setup.

also, what if in future we gain mech with nice firepower and fast overheat? just imagine how will working inci in this situation.

 

inci balancing in current state will be a headache after every patch.

 

you know what to expect incinerator in the end? Devs just nerf it into oblivion.

 

if (when) new developers will start correct the game balance, it will happen, rest assured. As it happened with bruiser (when people play on 3-4 bruiser in one team and use ability which turned they team into "extremely strong wall" with vulcans).

Edited by nepacaka, 01 April 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[Grollourdo]

then if they use super combos and your team cant use that one then why not use another supper combo? and so on .... 

[nepacaka]

sometimes when i play in siege, both of team starting play in different setup (two grenadier, assult/SS, and some A-classes etc.). But after a 15 min of fight, when nobody can't win you know what always happen? Both of team transformed into 4-5 C-Class + 1 tech, because it is Imba tactics in random siege. After this if your team hold AA, 95% - it is a Win.

If you are not transformed into a "heavy team", you probably can not beat other "heavy team" with tech on AA. (cuz they have so fat azzez :D)

it's very often happen on LostEco and Origin. Just because it is a nice setup to win.

Edited by nepacaka, 01 April 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Nepa you do not understand why Papa is high risk. This isn't "I've overheated it ergo it's high risk". For the last time, it is high risk becase it is easy to screw up on. There is little margin for error when using Papa SAARE. If one can perfectly use it and never overheat it no matter the situation, it is still high risk.'

 

Say there is an old bridge with holes in it, nearing collapse. Say there is a little girl who knows how to perfectly cross this bridge. Is the bridge suddenly safe? No, it only means that little girl knows how to cross it. Were she to screw up she would fall and die. To say Papa SAARE never overheats, that there is *no risk* involved, is essentially lying to yourself about the weapon because you don't like the Incinerator

 

The incinerator is not the perfect damage dealer because of its DPS. It has fewer applications due to its type and that the Papa is the only real  damage dealer, which has its own set of flaws (beyond ease of overheating). Again, if it goes through some balance changes I'll be fine with it. But it is classified as a support mech. A support mech with good offensive capabilities, but a support mech nonetheless. You cannot say it isn't a support mech because that is what the game says it is.

 

You are saying that the Papa Incinerator is good for enemies in cover. What if the enemy ambushes a Papa Inc? What if the enemy flanks it? What if you are sniped from a distance? What if you are trying to dash to help and run into a group of enemies on accident? Or nearly any single mech? The Papa is not great in any of these situations. I would know. This is part of the reason I go to the Baby at times, because the Baby is more general purpose than Papa.

[Derpy Hooves]

Verry good point but what about my suggestion from earlier ?

 

to balance it out a bit?

 

because i thin the incin is just a tiny bity bit unbalanced ..... balance it out by giving the other team a little advantage and therefore creating a downfall to compensate for your advantages no? XD

It's a support mech, it's not meant to be up on the frontline, but it can be if need be due to it's class. Messing with something that relies on a passive reaction to firing is going to be hard to balance regardless.

[RespawningJesus]

sometimes when i play in siege, both of team starting play in different setup (two grenadier, assult/SS, and some A-classes etc.). But after a 15 min of fight, when nobody can't win you know what always happen? Both of team transformed into 4-5 C-Class + 1 tech, because it is Imba tactics in random siege. After this if your team hold AA, 95% - it is a Win.

If you are not transformed into a "heavy team", you probably can not beat other "heavy team" with tech on AA. (cuz they have so fat azzez :D)

it's very often happen on LostEco and Origin. Just because it is a nice setup to win.

 

Wouldn't this imply that C mechs as a whole are broken in general then?

 

 

 

Anyways, the Incin only has two problems:  the passive which fuels the Incin/Tech combo, and the PAPA/SAARE wombo combo.

 

Fix these two things, and boom, Incin isn't OP.  Why waste time reworking it, when you can easily fix the problem with smaller tweaks?

 

Max the passive an ability of some sort.  Drain the heat from people who are around you for a short period of time.  (I mean, who seriously uses the butt slam anyways?  It kinda acts as a sort of last resort option when you are backed into a corner, and even then, you are hesitant to use it.)  Nerf fire rate or damage of SAARE secondary mode.  The only problem with the PAPA/SAARE combo is the amount of DPS it has, which largely comes from the SAARE secondary mode.  I personally think fire rate is the better choice, but that is up for debate.  Not sure on this last suggestion, but I heard somewhere that Incinerator has a lower overheat time than normal.  Make it so that when the Incin overheats, it leaves them out of the fight longer.  This makes heat management more important with the mech.

[Derpy Hooves]

Nepa you do not understand why Papa is high risk. This isn't "I've overheated it ergo it's high risk". For the last time, it is high risk becase it is easy to screw up on. There is little margin for error when using Papa SAARE. If one can perfectly use it and never overheat it no matter the situation, it is still high risk.'

 

Say there is an old bridge with holes in it, nearing collapse. Say there is a little girl who knows how to perfectly cross this bridge. Is the bridge suddenly safe? No, it only means that little girl knows how to cross it. Were she to screw up she would fall and die. To say Papa SAARE never overheats, that there is *no risk* involved, is essentially lying to yourself about the weapon because you don't like the Incinerator

 

The incinerator is not the perfect damage dealer because of its DPS. It has fewer applications due to its type and that the Papa is the only real  damage dealer, which has its own set of flaws (beyond ease of overheating). Again, if it goes through some balance changes I'll be fine with it. But it is classified as a support mech. A support mech with good offensive capabilities, but a support mech nonetheless. You cannot say it isn't a support mech because that is what the game says it is.

 

You are saying that the Papa Incinerator is good for enemies in cover. What if the enemy ambushes a Papa Inc? What if the enemy flanks it? What if you are sniped from a distance? What if you are trying to dash to help and run into a group of enemies on accident? Or nearly any single mech? The Papa is not great in any of these situations. I would know. This is part of the reason I go to the Baby at times, because the Baby is more general purpose than Papa.

Your the only one with brains here. PAPA/SAAREs are fuzzy bunny when it comes to soloing, and fuzzy bunny again when they run into a hoard without a tech. What people don't realize is, unlike all other weapons that are instant on/off. PAPA is not, theres a spinup time, and that spinup needs to be maintained in order for PAPA to be effective. You loose the spinup your dead simple as that, no spinup=no heat generation=no saare to fire leaving you dead in the water until you can get that spinup back. So in all actuality, you need to balance heat buildup/purge on top of your spinup when running PAPA. BBY and M4MA have similiar spinups but it's no where near as long as the PAPA. But oh wait, shouldn't mention M4MA, people might complain about the caustic heat on hit with it they might find that unfair too.

[Grollourdo]

ok i m just gonna ask ..... what is PAPA and saare? XD sorry to ask....

[Anichkov3]

 

When you saare starting reloaded, you can't cooling yourself, right?. so, if you starting reloading while you have 90-95% overheat, you nearbly teammates always will overheat you, because you can't cooling. It's a "logical error" in your concept. Design like this is broken, and has not obvious at first sight defects.

No "logical fallacy". Incinerator does not break due to overheating and to reset overheating and to recharge. If the mech is overheated due to the fault of the pilot - because it stands in the middle of the team. It's just the fault of the player who does not control the amount of ammo SAARE and environment around them.

 

I do not understand. Do you want to remove completely absorb the heat from the Allies? Equalize the characteristics of the weapons incinerator and grenadira?

What do you want? And we do not need rants about how the world is bad. It's so hard to paint on paragraphs 1), 2), 3), 4)? One sentence in each paragraph that you want to do. Without explanation why Owned do so.

Do you want to remove the "collection" of heat from the allies? Please - change Abilities: when activated abilities collecting heat from allies within 8 seconds. Do not like the "endless shooting"? In my version of a forced reloading weapons is perfect for such a unique mech.

A little bit to reduce the damage from the PPA is quite true, but why would completely alter the mech, I do not understand ....

Edited by Anichkov3, 01 April 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[RespawningJesus]

ok i m just gonna ask ..... what is PAPA and saare? XD sorry to ask....

 

PAPA is primary weapon #2 for the Incin, and SAARE is the Incin's secondary weapon.

 

In game, the PAPA is called the PPA.

Edited by RespawningJesus, 01 April 2015 - 05:42 AM.

[Hyginos]

Nepa you do not understand why Papa is high risk. This isn't "I've overheated it ergo it's high risk". For the last time, it is high risk becase it is easy to screw up on. There is little margin for error when using Papa SAARE. If one can perfectly use it and never overheat it no matter the situation, it is still high risk.'

 

Its riskier than BBY and M4MA, for sure, but to call it high risk is a bit generous. Pay attention to your heat bar and you'll be fine most of the time.

 

You cannot say it isn't a support mech because that is what the game says it is.

 

Why not? We're in a suggestion forum. I would think stating that a description does not match the function would be well within acceptable bounds.

 

 

 

You are saying that the Papa Incinerator is good for enemies in cover. What if the enemy ambushes a Papa Inc? What if the enemy flanks it? What if you are sniped from a distance? What if you are trying to dash to help and run into a group of enemies on accident? Or nearly any single mech? The Papa is not great in any of these situations. I would know. This is part of the reason I go to the Baby at times, because the Baby is more general purpose than Papa.

 

What if any mech encouters such things? Incinerator takes infinitely available and absurdly high DPS in exchange for a permanent radar signature and difficult positioning.

 

 

The incinerator is not the perfect damage dealer because of its DPS. It has fewer applications due to its type and that the Papa is the only real  damage dealer, which has its own set of flaws (beyond ease of overheating).

 

Two things: a good damage dealer is defined by its ability to do damage, which incinerator has in greater supply than any other mech, and if PPA is your primary source of damage (as opposed to the SAARE), your're doing it wrong.

Edited by Hyginos, 01 April 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[nepacaka]

A support mech with good offensive capabilities, but a support mech nonetheless. You cannot say it isn't a support mech because that is what the game says it is.

 

For sure! He is so good support-mech that he has the highest potential DPM, and able to stand on forefront of the attack, and lead the the whole team in fight as main tank.

it is an excellent definition of the support-mech.

 

Bruiser - it is support-mech. Can Bruiser tanking for a long time with tech? No. Because Bruiser - is a support.

 

Tech - it is support-mech. Can Tech tanking for a long time? No. Can tech kill raider in 1vs1? with difficulty. Because Tech - is a support.

 

Can Incinerator tanking alot of damage with tech? Yep. Can Incinerator deal alot of damage? Yep. Who is incinerator - support? Yep.

 

 

- What if the enemy ambushes a Papa Inc?

- press shift+s and kill it.

- What if the enemy flanks it?

- look on radar, then kill it.

- What if you are sniped from a distance?

- Stay with you pocket-tech behind cover, if it come close, kill it.

- What if you are trying to dash to help and run into a group of enemies on accident?

- Don't use suicide-rush. Just shoot from place where you stand and kill it.

- Or nearly any single mech?

- i suppose, kill it.

- The Papa is not great in any of these situations.

- ....nope? :D

 

[nepacaka]

I personally think fire rate is the better choice, but that is up for debate.

 

if you decrease SAARE RoF, nobody can shoot from ppa without overheating, because this weapon combo is strongly correlated. If you change one inci weapon, then you should rebalance all other weapons too.

if you starting decrease ppa overheat due change to SAARE, ppa start deal a massive damage for short time, because not overheat you so fast. if you starting decrease ppa damage, eventually, it will be no different from the bby.

 

See? one simple changes in SAARE, can destroy whole ppa conception.

 

I do not understand. Do you want to remove completely absorb the heat from the Allies?

 

no, i suppose delete a passive, and make an active abilitiy for incinerator heat management.

I do not understand ....

 

sorry, i can't help.

Your the only one with brains here.

 

you are probably one, who can't play on incinirator with papa well here.

Edited by nepacaka, 01 April 2015 - 06:05 AM.

[RespawningJesus]

if you decrease SAARE RoF, nobody can shoot from ppa without overheating, because this weapon combo is strongly correlated. If you change one inci weapon, then you should rebalance all other weapons too.

if you starting decrease ppa overheat due change to SAARE, ppa start deal a massive damage for short time, because not overheat you so fast. if you starting decrease ppa damage, eventually, it will be no different from the bby.

 

See? one simple changes in SAARE, can destroy whole ppa conception.

 

Or people could adapt to the SAARE change.  It is not as if you were constantly holding down left click with the PAPA to begin with anyways.  You'll just have to let go of the primary fire for longer, more frequently.  Or you could nerf the damage of the secondary SAARE, which runs the least risk of having to re-tweak the primary weapons.  You would probably have to lower the primary mode of the SAARE as well, but the Incin is basically designed to fire forever, so I see no problem with that.

[Derpy Hooves]

if you decrease SAARE RoF, nobody can shoot from ppa without overheating, because this weapon combo is strongly correlated. If you change one inci weapon, then you should rebalance all other weapons too.

if you starting decrease ppa overheat due change to SAARE, ppa start deal a massive damage for short time, because not overheat you so fast. if you starting decrease ppa damage, eventually, it will be no different from the bby.

 

See? one simple changes in SAARE, can destroy whole ppa conception.

 

no, i suppose delete a passive, and make an active abilitiy for incinerator heat management.

sorry, i can't help.

you are probably one, who can't play on incinirator with papa well here.

I can play it perfectly fine tyvm. It's fuzzy bunny in close range because out of the 3 weapons of the incin, it has the slowest firing startup time. Granted yes I primarily play A classes (no zerker thats just broken and boring from my perspective), whenever I run into a PPA Icin, first inclination is to get the fatty moving. Quickly ducking in and out taking quick shots off luring it to keep boosting, killing it's RoF by means of stopping it's spinup. The weapon as I have already stated is not instant on, once you get it started then yes it's a hail mary of DPS. The other thing you don't realize is the PPA between the BBY and M4MA has the most projectile lag, similiar to that of the SA. Am I disregarding the fact that PPA is a high DPS weapon? No I'm not, I'm merely pointing out the fallicies of the weapon that cause it to be balanced. If the PPA didn't have a spinup time or bullet lag, to where it functioned on terms like the SMC/AR then yes it would be excessively overpowered.

 

Sure the damage output could use a bit of tweaking, but other wise the PPA is perfectly fine. Unlike SMC/AR/Vulcan like your most likely used to, which are low damage high SPS(Shots Per Second). The Incin's weapons are on the other side of the spectrum, with modestly high power while having lower SPS. Look at any weapon in the game that has high DPS to SPS ratios, the harder you smack the target the slower that weapon is gonna fire. The BBY/PPA/M4MA are all in the gatling gun family, they're a revolving barrel weapon which requires belt fed ammo(as clearly depicted on all the Incin weapons), there for to keep firing those shots the drum(barrels) need to keep rotating, rotation stops, bullets stop firing. Look at Team Fortress 2's Heavy, he uses a minigun/gatling gun, the gun must spin up before he can fire, BBY/PPA/M4MA have the same firing principal here. Can a standing still Incin wreck shop like nobodies business? Sure as hell it can, it's keeping the barrel momentum up, faster barrel rotation, faster firing. The SAARE compliments the gatling gun nature in using the heat generated as weapon ammo(SAARE is more or less a caustic napalm weapon) as the SAARE saps the heat from the BBY/PPA/M4MA it's letting that weapon shoot for longer by cooling the barrels. The SAARE is required to balance the primaries no matter which is used, since it's a physical form of heat exhaust.

[nepacaka]

ok

[nepacaka]

Or people could adapt to the SAARE change.

 

i just will be waiting, till inci will be nerfed into oblivion, under continuous stream of whine ;D

Edited by nepacaka, 01 April 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[RespawningJesus]

i just will be waiting, till inci will be nerfed into oblivion, under continuous stream of whine ;D

 

No matter what happens though, people are always going to whine.  Nerf it into oblivion, people will say buff it.  Do nothing, people will say nerf it.  Such a pain.

[Panzermanathod]

Its riskier than BBY and M4MA, for sure, but to call it high risk is a bit generous. Pay attention to your heat bar and you'll be fine most of the time.

 

Why not? We're in a suggestion forum. I would think stating that a description does not match the function would be well within acceptable bounds.

 

What if any mech encouters such things? Incinerator takes infinitely available and absurdly high DPS in exchange for a permanent radar signature and difficult positioning.

 

Two things: a good damage dealer is defined by its ability to do damage, which incinerator has in greater supply than any other mech, and if PPA is your primary source of damage (as opposed to the SAARE), your're doing it wrong.

Is the Incinerator the main problem with it being a support mech, or the Papa? Seriously, except for Papa the Inc is perfectly good as a heavy support mech. The Reaper's second weapon is not a sniping weapon. Does it stop making it a sniping mech? No.

 

Using the Papa properly is not elimination of risk, and compared to all other weapons in the game, Papa is one of the riskiest.

 

And I said Incinerator is not the *perfect* damage dealer, not that it wasn't a good one (which is only really applicable to Papa SAARE).

 

For sure! He is so good support-mech that he has the highest potential DPM, and able to stand on forefront of the attack, and lead the the whole team in fight as main tank.

it is an excellent definition of the support-mech.

 

Bruiser - it is support-mech. Can Bruiser tanking for a long time with tech? No. Because Bruiser - is a support.

 

Tech - it is support-mech. Can Tech tanking for a long time? No. Can tech kill raider in 1vs1? with difficulty. Because Tech - is a support.

 

Can Incinerator tanking alot of damage with tech? Yep. Can Incinerator deal alot of damage? Yep. Who is incinerator - support? Yep.

 

Even I've said I don't mind the Incinerator being able to get he from the Tech's heal beam. Also, don't bring up A-classes as potential tankers, that's just silly. Also it would be easy to out damage the healing of a tech compared to any mech with Turret Mode. Just saying.

 

 

- What if the enemy ambushes a Papa Inc?

- press shift+s and kill it.

Spin up. Also that implies only ambushes come from behind and that no ambushes involve hit and run tactics.

 

- What if the enemy flanks it?

- look on radar, then kill it.

Spin up.

 

- What if you are sniped from a distance?

- Stay with you pocket-tech behind cover, if it come close, kill it.

That assumes there is a tech around. Also, *SNIPING* entails the guy isn't attempting to come close enough to get hit. And your solution is not for just an incinerator. Your "solution" in invalid.

 

- What if you are trying to dash to help and run into a group of enemies on accident?

- Don't use suicide-rush. Just shoot from place where you stand and kill it.

Suicide rush? Trying to get back into battle and accidently bumping into other enemies is a suicide rush? Also, this implies that the enemies are, you know, visible immediently from a spawn point or at any point in the map, which is half feasible for, what, one map?

 

- Or nearly any single mech?

- i suppose, kill it.

Same as above. Alternatively the solo mech could run away. With proper cover the Papa Inc is at a disadvantage in chasing enemies down because of the Papa's startup time.

 

- The Papa is not great in any of these situations.

- ....nope? :D

I've used the Incinerator in optimal and not optimal conditions. In any situation I mentoned above other weapons beat out the Papa in terms of general usability. Have you used the Incinerator for a large number of battles?

 

 

Also the Inc does not need longer cooldown time. Overheating already limits its firing enough. Not just the actual cooldown time, but because your secondary is not immediently available coming off a cooldown, and is largely dependant on the primary weapons, which in the case for Papa and Mama, have considerable start up times.

Edited by Panzermanathod, 01 April 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Grollourdo]

PAPA is primary weapon #2 for the Incin, and SAARE is the Incin's secondary weapon.

In game, the PAPA is called the PPA.

OOOOHHH OK XD

[MomOw]

Slight changes can make the incinerator less efficient, so that it could re-balance it.

 

The slight changes :

reduce the B4BY spread to 3.5 (same as SMC), increase HPS to ~15

increase the P4P4 spread to 8.6 (same as mini-flak), reduce its effective range (falloff from 40m to 160m, same as SMC), decrease HPS to ~30, increase DPS to 112 (i.e +1 dmg per shot)

 

reduce the uncharged SAARE to 50 damages

increase the charged SAARE cooldown to 2s and increase its damage to 90

Edited by MomOw, 19 April 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[MomOw]

and reduce dat sound !

[Brawler_Yukon]

I heard somewhere that Incinerator has a lower overheat time than normal.  

If you read the stats in-game you'd see that the Inc has a faster cool down than even Fred. I think something like 3.75 seconds.

 

 

Slight changes can make the incinerator less efficient, so that it could re-balance it.

-snip-

And of the M4MA? The weapon that is actually kinda supportive over solo, of what would you do to fix the fact you've nerfed the SAARE's secondary, thus making M4MA less appealing to all but the most loving fans?

Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 25 April 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Most who are against the Incinerator either wants it gone or nerfed to the point of unusability or changed to be like the other mechs. Given how many don't consider Incin a support mech I don't think  most care for any Mama changes. *shots fired*.

 

And given that the all the Incinerator's weapons have a rev up (really, Papa and Mama seem to have the highest rev up times of any weapon here), as well as the fact that it's secondary is not immediately available upon recovering from cooldown, it's relatively low overheat cooldown is justified.

[IareDave]

Most who are against the Incinerator either wants it gone or nerfed to the point of unusability or changed to be like the other mechs. Given how many don't consider Incin a support mech I don't think most care for any Mama changes. *shots fired*.

And given that the all the Incinerator's weapons have a rev up (really, Papa and Mama seem to have the highest rev up times of any weapon here), as well as the fact that it's secondary is not immediately available upon recovering from cooldown, it's relatively low overheat cooldown is justified.

Highest Dps in the game, fast C speed, no downtime if played correctly, increases heat gen of target, and the tech combo. When played by a top tier player such as Leon, dew, and xacius to name a few, the imbalances are significantly more obvious. There's a reason almost the entire comp. community feels it needs a nerf and why every team ran it in TPG s1(and no we don't want to make it unusuble).

[Panzermanathod]

Okay I admit I was being a little dickish in my last point (although the second half of my post is legit) so you can disregard that is... well, me being dickish.

 

Also, saying it should be nerfed because of DPS may or may not be fair. It's like saying Tech should be buffed because it has the lowest HP in the game, or that one mech (I forget which) should be nerfed because its HP is the highest in the game. Nerf PPA and something else will take its place as "Highest DPS". I'm not saying it must absolutely not be nerfed, it's just that the PPA isn't exactly the most practical weapon on the field. Even if you "get a rhythm" for firing it it changes constantly if you're in the middle of a shootout. Given that the PPA does have notable drawbacks if you can't use it well, that's why I don't find the weapon itself particularly OP. And saying that it's really good if you're really good at using it does kinda sound picky since the same can be said for many other weapons.

 

Although if it did get a slight nerf for slightly lower Heat I'd totally be up for it.

 

It is a fast C Class but I thought it was balanced by it's low fuel.

 

The Tech thing even I admitted needs to be dealt with. No issues here.

 

I have no real comment on the lack of downtime. I mean, I personally initially got Incin because I liked the concept of a heat eating support mech. Shooting forever was just a bonus and even then I just chalked it up to it being a Support/Suppression mech.

 

And does the SAARE actually raise the heat of opponents? To be fair it is harder to hit with than some other secondaries but that's just me. I know Mama raises heat generation but Mama's not great in an outright firefight, only in zone denial, so I don't see too much of an issue with it.

 

But as someone who isn't a high MMR player, I have two questions for you.

 

1) When it comes to using SAARE, how often does a player have issues hitting anyone beyond mid range? Like the Grenade launcher, it's arc makes it so unless you're really close to the opponent and on relatively even footing it doesn't seem like it'll going to hit a mobile opponent regularly.

 

2) You said every team had an Incin in TPG s1. This is an honest question... is it partially because it doesn't have turret mode? Given the whole "mobility is king" mentality and that, from what I've seen, turret mode isn't too useful for higher MMR guys (I could be wrong). And as far as the Incin is concerned it is a heavy mech with decent speed with an ability that doesn't slow it down, plus a passive that lets enemies and allies shoot a bit more.

 

And given that, of the C classes...

 

Rocketeer has the notgoodathighlevel Hellfires and Turret Mode

Brawler has what I've heard to be considered the least useful Turret Mode

G2 Raider being very hard to use

Grenadier being at it's most useful outside direct combat

Vanguard... I don't know, don't hear much issue with it outside some people finding Turret mode in general either being useless or a very situational skill

 

...of all those, is the Incin simply the most viable High HP mech? I'm not trying to go "Yo Incinerator is the best mech ever" or anything like that. I just want to know, outside Incin, how viable *are* all the other C-Class mechs are in general.

[IareDave]

SAARE launcher does increase the targets heat gen, and a competent player can easily land ground shots a far distance due to the ridiculous alt fire splash. The only viable way to beat an incinerator one on one is to float, greatly reducing their chance to hit you. C classes in general are a bit too strong imo but my reasons for that are current mechanics such as the weapon delay.

I have no problem with the mech as a whole, it's unique and fits its role. The issue is the heat gen. Xacius posted a video a while back of a flak brawler and a incin standing still in cqc blasting each other. Result? The brawler overheated before it could even kill the Incin (using PPA). I don't think a mech with so many strengths should also have the ability to cause you to overheat. Heat management is a skill like any other and precise aim should not be punished by a mechs weaponry.

[Panzermanathod]

Fair enough.

 

I still say Mama should still cause overheating. Really, if that gets taken away there's almost no point in using it.

 

As for my other questions? I really am curious.

Edited by Panzermanathod, 25 April 2015 - 04:38 PM.