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Dev Update - October 25

* * * * - 4 votes dev update

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#121
nepacaka

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While I agree that turret mode is imbalanced for many of the mechs they're equipped on, I'd say the Vanguard turret mode has the most utility out of all the turret modes. I say that because a turreted Vanguard sitting atop an orb can withstand a surprising amount of punishment, and many times you have to have the presence of mind to just ignore the turreted orb-Vanguard if you don't have the DPS or EMPs to make a go at it.

 

Without the orb, I agree that the Vanguard's turret mode is pretty ineffective. But that single orb can change a lot.

i'm not about it is effective or not. im about, that they even don't try think about something, except press F. because why you need press something, if you actually can do some magic. and then they see some scout-smurf, and start whining about how OP is scout (when they kill it without chance or from behind). just cuz they don't understand, if you stand still, you ded. doesn't matter how much armor u have.
 

the game should push player to the actions, moving, change positions, and do some dodges, use some radar. instead of this, game show nubs how it cool - to be a cool teenage ninja turtle.
it is actually enough reason to delete it, for the sake of general game mechanics (regarding boost/dodge/movements). some ideas not cost to safe it in game, to make game more complex, but not better in general.

i know that ADH put some effort to animate it. and it is look cool. but it is very bad part of hawken which only make it worse, and misleading newcomers players who trying to play on C-class.
the game told him, "A-class is a best runner, B - balance, C - heavy armor", and people understand it like "hm... i should use turret to be a hard to kill", but in reality, they just useless.z

The first thing I want to say is that "Turret Mode" should N.O.T. count as a "special ability". C-Class mechs should have a unique special ability AND turret mode.

 

until this exist, they will be use it. nothing changes for Brawler+Turret+Ability. it is still teach you bad habits, like press F and W+shoot, instead press W-A-S-D+Shift+Space+Shoot, and the combination of those buttons to made differents tricks. see the difference? It is still don't help player understand how they SHOULD play


Edited by nepacaka, 31 October 2016 - 11:17 AM.

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#122
wischatesjesus

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I don't know what I want, because I don't know what'd happen if AD in its current form became universal. In my mind, bad things would happen, especially in lower-tier lobbies. And I still don't like the momentum nullification thingy aesthetically.

 

Bad things will always happen in low tier lobbies. Really nothing you can do to curb bad-on-bad crimes, only with universal AC there won't be any fresh players scratching there head wondering why other people's mechs can dodge in the air but his can't.

 

I disagree with you on the aesthetic thing, but I can see where you're coming from.

 

Also to be clear I think AC is in a reasonably good spot right now and don't really mind either way if we get universal AC. I'm playing devils advocate because, even if I disagree with them, I want any changes that are influenced by forum discussion to be influenced by the reasoning and not the volume behind a position.


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#123
TheButtSatisfier

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Spoiler


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 31 October 2016 - 02:09 PM.

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#124
DerMax

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Butt, I don't think you're being completely honest with your view on the degree to which air-dodge is used by competent players, or rather, on the proportion of staying on the ground vs going airborne and ADing. From my experience, not only do good players use it, they rely on it. I know this from dueling extensively with some of the top EU players, watching top NA bois and participating in tourneys.

 

In theory, yes, AD complements the ground movement, thus enriching the pool of available possibilities and the game itself. In practice, however, at least in my experience, given the choice, a competent player will go for air-dodging more often than not, because it's simply a better option (higher ground, avoid splash damage from structures etc.) So does it really add options? Or does it just move the battle to the air?

 

 

Put another way, I suppose that I'm just drawing a line in the sand with how Internals should be handled, and I don't think Internals should grant additional modes of movement. As I said earlier, I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

I think it's a matter of preference, and I guess no amount of discussion will change your mind. Let it be decided by the devs.


Edited by DerMax, 31 October 2016 - 02:15 PM.


#125
TheButtSatisfier

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Butt, I don't think you're being completely honest with your view on the degree to which air-dodge is used by competent players, or rather, on the proportion of staying on the ground vs going airborne and ADing. From my experience, not only do good players use it, they rely on it. I know this from dueling extensively with some of the top EU players, watching top NA bois and participating in tourneys.

 

In theory, yes, AD complements the ground movement, thus enriching the pool of available possibilities and the game itself. In practice, however, at least in my experience, given the choice, a competent player will go for air-dodging more often than not, because it's simply a better option (higher ground, avoid splash damage from structures etc.) So does it really add options? Or does it just move the battle to the air?

 

I didn't mean to supply my opinion on the number of good players that use AC, but I agree that many good players use it. On the other hand, I'm not sure that many of them outright rely on it. You can get away with not using AC on a lot of mechs, and said mechs tend to be piloted by good players. Most of those good players can unequip AC and pick up another internal that softens the blow. Other players, feel free to chime in on this assumption.

 

Granted, if I think that AC is going to bestow a bigger advantage over another internal then I'll pick it, and other similarly-minded pilots will probably do the same.

 

I think that AD'ing does introduce interesting gameplay opportunities and options. On one hand, AD'ing allows a smart pilot to move in an additional dimension which can help break a trace. It can also allow greater mobility on maps that leave a pilot literally hanging after using a jumppad like Origin. Conversely, being in the air makes you a very easy target for enemies far away. If you make a mistake in the air, that's it. Being on the ground is much more forgiving; if you screw up a dodge you can boost out of it. Using AD effectively is situational and fairly balanced, and that's why I like the mechanic.

 

Anyways, this is a good dialogue. Even if it's subjective, keep it coming. Eventually we'll uncover some objective facts to work off of.

 

Lastly - yes, me drawing a line in the sand is a matter of preference, but "no amount of discussion will change [my] mind" is an incorrect statement. I said that I was open to being convinced otherwise. I was convinced by someone already that AC should be universal, so since I've been convinced by someone once, I think it's reasonable to assume that it can happen again for the counterargument. Someone just has to make an argument effective enough for me to accept it. I'm curious to see what it looks like.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 31 October 2016 - 02:53 PM.

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#126
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Frankly, that's BS and you know it.


 

But only saying it's a crutch for bad players significantly oversimplifies the utilities of that internal / mechanic for the sake of what sounds like an impressive bias.

 

I've used AC for AD when AirZerker was on TD.  And, as you say, corkscrew and return dodge makes it really hard for a player not expecting it.

 

But I see so many who had better moves lose them - willingly, or not - to get into fire-AD habits, and jump pad-AD-fire cheese.  And, frankly, that makes it easier for me to predict them, not harder.

 

I say this because I see players get lazier and devolve.  Or I see players get AD and never seem to get better (this includes some who liked your post).

 

I feel very strongly (and I don't think it's bias, but if it is, fine) a player should improve while learning a ground game, not an air game.  This mech shooter is a ground game with limited options for 3d movement.  It should not devolve (as Derp argues) into a 2d air combat game with limited 3d movement.


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#127
wischatesjesus

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In practice, however, at least in my experience, given the choice, a competent player will go for air-dodging more often than not, because it's simply a better option (higher ground, avoid splash damage from structures etc.) So does it really add options? Or does it just move the battle to the air?

 

Being airborn and using air dodge does indeed have advantages as you mentioned, but it also costs 3 internal slots right now, consumes fuel, opens up a safe zone under you for enemies to abuse, and makes you vulnerable to long range hitscan (which I'm sure you noticed there is a ton of in comp/meta/high tier/whatever).

 

Also someone with a hitscan primary and a remote det secondary (again, a lot of these around) is pretty much unaffected by that elevation change.

 

Also heavy mechs rarely run AC outside of origin and there are a lot of them (see again: comp/meta/whatever).


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#128
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Also serial smurfing and avoiding all forms of comp play are not conducive to fighting legitimately good pilots.

 

Let's start here.... what was your main account again?

 

Second, how have I avoided all forms of comp play?  On what basis do you say that?  I seem to remember two whole seasons in TPG (I have the videos even if you don't), a number of TAW events, several SSSD & WW.  Many of which had players no longer in the game (is it a callout if I name them and they're nowhere to be found anymore?).

 

 

I see a few reasonable arguments in this thread for changing how air dodge interacts with vertical momentum, especially as it pertains to jump pads, but the arguments I see against both its current implementation and against the idea of universal air dodge just look like "it is a bad thing that bad players do" or "I don't like it"

 

As I posted a moment ago, I - my observation - think players stop growing gamesense, and devolve into a few standard moves.  I also feel it moves the game into a 2d-wtih-limited-3d play a dozen to twenty meters off the ground.  And, I feel both make players predictable.

 

A ground-only player who can beat the AC/AD player is a better player.  A ground-mostly player who can do exaggerated movement and beat a lazy air-dodger when whipping the air-zerker out of the garage - and then returns to the ground seems more impressive to me.  Could be bias.

 

Honestly, I'd like to keep the AC/AD to one or three classes (they can include zerker, that's fine).  I'm not even complaining about the windwalking/microstart-stop macro vulcan players being too stronk (they're mostly not).  And, I'd like to keep AC to unrestricted servers and make the newer players have to really learn the ground game first.

 

Hell you can even grandfather all current players into the 'can buy AC and use it in any server'. 

 

Maybe that's bias.  But I think it's used too heavily by a lot of players who could be better. 


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#129
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Tangentially, I fairly sure butt hit 2600 mmr in a ground scout before he found Brawler Jesus.

 

Illustrating my point exactly.


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#130
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Maybe I should shut up.  Airdodge lets me twitch a TOW or Sabot to the end of the dodge and get many kills.  And if I'm even close with a grenade, I do reliable damage.

 

It's not in my self-interest to want players to not have AC until some serious time has evolved in their career.

 

But I think it's better for the game.  Your mileage may vary.


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#131
TheButtSatisfier

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Tangentially, I fairly sure butt hit 2600 mmr in a ground scout before he found Brawler Jesus.

 

Illustrating my point exactly.

 

Not that it particularly matters: I played groundscout for a month or so to focus on my "footwork" when I was in the 2400s. Afterwards I put AC back on my scout when I achieved my goal. I continued played scout a month after that until senpai allowed me to main Brawler, and it's mostly with her that I hit 2600.

 

I'd say half of the mechs I still play have AC equipped. None of my C's have it, but all my A's and B's do. If I'm playing Origin and feeling frisky I'll  put it on my Vanguard.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 31 October 2016 - 04:29 PM.

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#132
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Butt, I'm confused.  What point are you arguing?
 

1 - "I went to ground only to improve my game"

 

2 - "Air Scout is not competitive at higher levels of play"

 

3 - The SO is right. Always?


Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 31 October 2016 - 04:45 PM.

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#133
MatsuhiroMaru

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so in reume your "brillant" idea of milk the cow by selling "paytowin" mechs with double weapons messed totally the game and you dont enven know how to repair it now, so you are asking for feedback. Great.... good job guys. RIP HAWKEN (its amzing when they say "you expect to be able to customize some of the weapons" who spected that ? we are asking for laser guns, night maps, and other stuff since years not this paytowin weapon customizations you are pretty far to know what we spect, by the way i spect a campaign mode but with this post i lose my hope totally)



#134
comic_sans

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I MEANT DON'T START THIS, DERMAN

 

NOT HERE


Edited by comic_sans, 31 October 2016 - 06:03 PM.

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#135
wischatesjesus

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Let's start here.... what was your main account again?
 
Second, how have I avoided all forms of comp play?  On what basis do you say that?  I seem to remember two whole seasons in TPG (I have the videos even if you don't), a number of TAW events, several SSSD & WW.  Many of which had players no longer in the game (is it a callout if I name them and they're nowhere to be found anymore?).


I don't smurf anonymously or often: that equivalency is invalid. Also I have about 20 hours of comp hawken on my youtube channel across dozens of matches stretching back to season 1 of TPG, on which I can't find a single instance of you. I think you can understand why I assume that your participation in comp play was minimal.

 

 

As I posted a moment ago, I - my observation - think players stop growing gamesense, and devolve into a few standard moves.  I also feel it moves the game into a 2d-wtih-limited-3d play a dozen to twenty meters off the ground.  And, I feel both make players predictable.

 

A ground-only player who can beat the AC/AD player is a better player.  A ground-mostly player who can do exaggerated movement and beat a lazy air-dodger when whipping the air-zerker out of the garage - and then returns to the ground seems more impressive to me.  Could be bias.

 

Honestly, I'd like to keep the AC/AD to one or three classes (they can include zerker, that's fine).  I'm not even complaining about the windwalking/microstart-stop macro vulcan players being too stronk (they're mostly not).  And, I'd like to keep AC to unrestricted servers and make the newer players have to really learn the ground game first.

 

Hell you can even grandfather all current players into the 'can buy AC and use it in any server'. 

 

Maybe that's bias.  But I think it's used too heavily by a lot of players who could be better. 

 

To be clear, I have no contention that reliance on air compressor can be bad for a player's skill. I just don't think that matters for the discussion about what to do with it.

 

If we accept that things in this game that form bad habits should be removed (I know this is a straw man, no on said this, but I'm trying to make an example demonstrating my problem with the logic), then would we also have to remove rocketeer, nief, hellfires, and remote detonation? Is it really that bad to have things that suck against good players? Is it even possible to not have such things in at least some quantity while also having more than one loadout available to players? Are rhetorical questions tiresome in quantity?

 

Anyway I think we're having about 4 separate discussions here.


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#136
Call_Me_Ishmael

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I don't smurf anonymously or often: that equivalency is invalid. Also I have about 20 hours of comp hawken on my youtube channel across dozens of matches stretching back to season 1 of TPG, on which I can't find a single instance of you. I think you can understand why I assume that your participation in comp play was minimal.

 

 

 It's ENTIRELY relevant.  If you're wrong about one thing, how many others are you wrong about?

 

Trying to bring in your experience in Comp play and marginalize me because you erroneously thought I was ducking comp play is poor logic.  We're talking about Hawken as a whole, not a subset of Hawken.

 

I don't know when the last time you played your main is.  I played Lunatic for two matches this morning, and Ishmael in several over the weekend. 

 

I don't think this is going to be a productive direction - which you took the conversation along - and would like to focus on whether or not AC should be universal in Hawken, and why it should or should not.


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#137
Silverfire

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I don't smurf anonymously or often: that equivalency is invalid. Also I have about 20 hours of comp hawken on my youtube channel across dozens of matches stretching back to season 1 of TPG, on which I can't find a single instance of you. I think you can understand why I assume that your participation in comp play was minimal.

 

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#138
Call_Me_Ishmael

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I practiced/did TAW under 'Discessus', but not TPG (only Lunatic, I think). 

 

MrHigh420 was the guy who talked me into trying RATA in TPG's second season.  It didn't take much convincing.

 

I got roped into the B-Team... I'm still not sure how Amid pulled that off, but I had fun.

 

 

Edit: I still think voicecomms in comp play removes about 100 MMR until you've practiced a LOT.


Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 31 October 2016 - 08:14 PM.

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#139
CZeroFive

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I mean, the way I look at it is, at least the air compressor internal will be available early on for any Mech you want. Part of the game should be learning and progressing through your Mech's internals and unlocking ones to make it better for your playstyle. You can do that without paying too, which is great.

 

You can also unlock it by grinding Bots TDM, where a lot of new players will be going to get the hang of the game  - especially when the console patches start to  hit PC and their first match is a Bots TDM - the matchmaker will automatically put you into a BotsTDM as your first game.


Edited by CZeroFive, 31 October 2016 - 08:45 PM.

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#140
6ixxer

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 Bots TDM, where a lot of new players will be going to get the hang of the game  - especially when the console patches start to  hit PC and their first match is a Bots TDM - the matchmaker will automatically put you into a BotsTDM as your first game.

 

^this

 

new pilots need to kill bots before being subjected to the asshat-ery of the current unbalanced population.


Edited by 6ixxer, 31 October 2016 - 09:20 PM.


#141
nepacaka

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If we accept that things in this game that form bad habits should be removed (I know this is a straw man, no on said this, but I'm trying to make an example demonstrating my problem with the logic), then would we also have to remove rocketeer, nief, hellfires, and remote detonation? Is it really that bad to have things that suck against good players? Is it even possible to not have such things in at least some quantity while also having more than one loadout available to players? Are rhetorical questions tiresome in quantity?
Anyway I think we're having about 4 separate discussions here.

Just because devs have no idea which game they want developed.
Want competitive - leave AC, delete rocketeer, and his shitty friend like nief
Want to made normal game, for normal player - make game easier.

Game still have 100 ppl online. And AD is still impossible to hit if you mmr not 2k+. And game is still hard.

My own opinion. Devs can't choose the route in which game should evolution. And don't know how final result should be. Hawken is still game for noone (hard for mechy-fans, sux for competitive), u may think all what u want, but online players numbers, and fact that nubs leave after 1 day of play, clearly show that game is unfunny. (and probably unplayable for many players).

Also, about rocketeer and others. This mechs is literally sux. And they look like "easy mech for nubs", but in reality, it have virce-versa effect. Instead making gameplay "Easy" for player. Bruiser making impossible to player beat assault. So, in real gameplay, player buy mech like bruiser, play 1-2 days, and literally start sux. Because when he meet +/- strong assault, vanguard, bers, he can't do nothing with his bruiser.
So, sucking mech like rocky/bruisr is really help for nubs? Or turning game for they into nightmare with AC-berserkers and assaults? Where are they just a "fresh meat"?

Maybe, we should just rework HF speed, delete aim, and making it like tow analog?, at the same time, also rework aim from seeker, and rework technician torch into quake 3 lighting gun too?
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Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

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#142
GLYCH_04007

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If you are going along with the idea of armour types, it would be sensible for one to only be equitable at once. I can see numerous armour types available for experimentation. 

 

Heavy Armour:  More armour, less speed

Light Armour:  Less armour, more speed.

 

Perhaps an armour type that increases cooldown power time but decreases defence? 

 

Or one that increases power duration at the cost of increased power cooldown?

 

There is plenty to play around with here, and that's just armour types.

I just got done doing some games with a power surger on various mechs, and it is pretty Good, so Light armor might get pretty crazy.  Ever see an Incin or van run as fast as a scout? Probably just got a kill and is feeling juiced. Same goes for evasive device to an extent, except, not as much power.



#143
Catnium

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move speed penalty on Heavy armor ..... are you f' ing insane .. unless that hp bonus is like 300% no amount of health bonus will ever be balanced. 10% less damage taken is equal to 10% extra hp .. wich is NOTHING .. its like here you can take half an extra missle impact while you can't even dodge them anymore ( not like fat mechs ever could )  and you now move so slow even someone with parkinson's can still hit and kill you before you can even get em to half hp.

 

seriously MOVE SPEED IS KING

this is why fat mechs suck to begin with .. they are to freaking  slow can't dodge missle impacts and are basicaly a waist of space in a team because of this  .

 

 

if you wanna do this that it should atleast be 

reduces damage by 75% 

decrease move speed by 25%

 

in anycase have the dev lads decided what this game will be yet ?

mech  objective shooter with tactical aspect and maybe a dash of moba-esc elements 

or twitch reaction run around like a dork shooting stuff cod clone ?

 

coz if its the 2nd im def never installing hawken ever again...


Edited by Catnium, 01 November 2016 - 01:26 AM.

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#144
CZeroFive

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10% less damage taken is equal to 10% extra hp .. wich is NOTHING ..

 

That's not true. At all.

 

10% damage, if it's a flat reduction:

 

Let's say an ability does 10 damage, and 10% of that is taken away. That's 1 less damage you are dealing each hit.

Let's also say the ability fires once every second.

 

Let's say you have 490 HP on a mech..

 

In example if you were dealt damage with this weapon over the course of 16 seconds, you would sustain 144 damage with the mod and 160 damage without the mod. So let's plug in some max values for a 'killing blow':

 

It would take 55 seconds to kill you with the mod, and 49 seconds without. That is a significant increase in survival.

 

But wait - let's do what you're proposing, let's increase the damage reduction to 75%.

 

All of a sudden we have a weapon that formerly did 10 damage doing 2.5 damage instead, and the time to kill goes up from 55 seconds to 196 seconds. A rather large jump from the sane values presented. If anything, the reduction needs to be adjusted lower to about 5% (which we've done internally) to make sure the values aren't out of whack.

 

In short, damage reduction isn't equal to HP gains. If we did what you did, you'd end up with a scenario like in our playtest where I just stomped on everyone with a G2-Vanguard with Repair Kit/Heavy Armor internals.


Edited by CZeroFive, 01 November 2016 - 01:49 AM.

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#145
Silverfire

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seriously MOVE SPEED IS KING

this is why fat mechs suck to begin with .. they are to freaking  slow can't dodge missle impacts and are basicaly a waist of space in a team because of this  .

 

Someone clearly didn't participate or watch all 3 seasons of TPG where heavy mechs dominated the meta game.


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#146
crockrocket

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And AD is still impossible to hit if you mmr not 2k+. And game is still hard.

I'm sorry but this statement is utterly false.

Also you're oversimplifying player retention; there are a number of reasons why hawken has poor retention, AC is not one of them.

Edited by crockrocket, 01 November 2016 - 05:31 AM.

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[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#147
Silverfire

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I'm sorry but this statement is utterly false.

Also you're oversimplifying player retention; there are a number of reasons why hawken has poor retention, AC is not one of them.

 

In a way it could be seen as a contributor to poor retention, people see it locked behind a level wall or a paywall for a definitively game changing internal.  That may or may not turn people off, especially given how poorly Hawken communicates information in general to the player.


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#148
Meraple

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If anything, the reduction needs to be adjusted lower to about 5% (which we've done internally) to make sure the values aren't out of whack.

Then what are your thoughts on the 2-slot Deflectors on PC (20% dmg reduc) used with the Flak Brawler?

If you're moving properly in a Flak Brawler, you'll be boosting/dodging most of the time in combat.

It's safe to say that the 20% damage reduction will apply to the majority of your health pool (800 hp).

 

If you think it's an issue, what'd you do to resolve it?



#149
crockrocket

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In a way it could be seen as a contributor to poor retention, people see it locked behind a level wall or a paywall for a definitively game changing internal.  That may or may not turn people off, especially given how poorly Hawken communicates information in general to the player.

 

That's fair, I unilaterally disagree with level locked items/internals and even weapons for that reason.


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#150
CZeroFive

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That's fair, I unilaterally disagree with level locked items/internals and even weapons for that reason.

 

Level-locked internals/items/weapons are going away in the next console patch.


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#151
Sriracha_Sauce

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Level-locked internals/items/weapons are going away in the next console patch.


So we will be able to purchase all internals items and weapons right away? How then will progression be implemented if level locked stuff is disappearing?

Can't handle the sauce?


#152
nepacaka

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Someone clearly didn't participate or watch all 3 seasons of TPG where heavy mechs dominated the meta game.

they also dominated on pubs most of time. every siege is a minimum 5 C-classes.

 

I'm sorry but this statement is utterly false.

Also you're oversimplifying player retention; there are a number of reasons why hawken has poor retention, AC is not one of them.

lol. when i do some achievments i use bers and assolt with AC. i increase my mmr from 2200 to ~2400 just by using Suicidal tactics + AC in siege mode. I just hold space and doge to left/right and rush into 6 enemies at AA. many people who play +/- adequate just don't have a chance against. yes, they always kill me (6 vs 1, lol), but i always took 2-3 enemies with me to the grave. 
did you really think, those people was fun when he see how i jump into their head and they can't do nothing with me, while i'm just shred them in bers ability? average player literally don't have any chance beat this easy tactic. 

much more easy use left-right and aim to enemy who stand +/- at one line with you. but not when you need sharply moving your mouse up and down.
for example, i also have a problems, mostly not with compressor, i can beat it from 20 to 50m distance easily, but i start have real problem, when enemy jump on my head, because i can't look up fast. i can only counter this, when i'm prepare to enemy attack, and look up before, in right place, where enemy appear later. (i.e. predict). my aim not super good, it is true, but many people even don't have the same reaction. it is a very hard maneveur (moving by mouse), especially, when you use standart PC for play in game, and standart keyboard/mouse. you should understand, that not all people pay 50$ for mouse, to play in online-games.
I can 99% sure say that most players are unable to resist the compressor (i'm not about current online, where 50% elite and 50% nubs, i'm in general), except they got pure luck and hit target (but theere the moment. you should hit enemies 2-4 times in a row to kill, and even if they hit one times by luck, they still dead, because they can't do this several times. it is just impossible). It is much more hard, and required much more time to rebuild your brain, and start thinking not only about ground, but about enemies who can use it.

+ mechs in air have some advantages. easy tow. their crosshair not shaking when you stop, as if you stand on ground. harder to splash. game literally push you buy this internal and be a hover-car. and punish people who don't want use it. (i'm about "ordinary" players (which we simply don't have in game now), not about guys, who can use 180 and shoot squirrel in the eye since 250m)


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#153
CZeroFive

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So we will be able to purchase all internals items and weapons right away? How then will progression be implemented if level locked stuff is disappearing?

 

MC/HC costs will determine when you can buy an item. It's simple enough for people to understand. Progression on Mechs will be for buying G2s and unlocking cosmetic parts only.


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#154
nepacaka

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Level-locked internals/items/weapons are going away in the next console patch.

this is actually sound very-very good. it help a little.
maybe very help.


Edited by nepacaka, 01 November 2016 - 07:04 AM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#155
Sriracha_Sauce

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MC/HC costs will determine when you can buy an item. It's simple enough for people to understand. Progression on Mechs will be for buying G2s and unlocking cosmetic parts only.


So if you intend a player to purchase something later on in their progression, you'll just make it more expensive? Like making AC more expensive, or an internal labeled "advanced." Doesn't that possibly add to a pay to win illusion even if it were not true?

Also I wonder if current legacy mechs will be competitively viable against G2s in their current console iteration. I hope so.

Can't handle the sauce?


#156
CZeroFive

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So if you intend a player to purchase something later on in their progression, you'll just make it more expensive? Like making AC more expensive, or an internal labeled "advanced." Doesn't that possibly add to a pay to win illusion even if it were not true?

Also I wonder if current legacy mechs will be competitively viable against G2s in their current console iteration. I hope so.

 

I would say it's more insulting and gives the illusion of having to spend money the way it's set up now: "Level up to pilot level 11 for this internal - oh, and that'll be 625 HC please."

 

The new system allows players to be more competitive out of the gate by having no restrictions on when you can get something.

As for the G2s, with how much HC the average PC player has saved up, I don't think it will be a problem, especially if everything is available to you at the beginning with no progression requirements.


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#157
nepacaka

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So if you intend a player to purchase something later on in their progression, you'll just make it more expensive? Like making AC more expensive, or an internal labeled "advanced." Doesn't that possibly add to a pay to win illusion even if it were not true?

my personal opinion, items and internals should cost less, to allow people buy many of them and experiment with this. like "what happen if i put "evasive device"  on brawler? will it be faster/usefull when i have 50% HP, because i have alot of HP?"
or "how scout was feel, if i put "surgery" on it?"
it is interest. i think.


c05, about unlocking progression on consoles. it will be also very good, if you allow buy "alternative" and "elite" weapons without mech rank.
and also renamed both of weapon to "Alternate". 
Because people may think that SMC is a cheap standart weapon, AR is a more stronger, and the Vulcan-D is super-best weapons. but in reality it is not true.

when i write some guides for hawken, i'm always notice, that the 3 weapons in hawken don't have a "gradation" like standart -> better -> the best, and trying explain than all weapons just changed your gameplay, role, and tactic on battlefield.


Edited by nepacaka, 01 November 2016 - 07:19 AM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#158
Sriracha_Sauce

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I would say it's more insulting and gives the illusion of having to spend money the way it's set up now: "Level up to pilot level 11 for this internal - oh, and that'll be 625 HC please."

The new system allows players to be more competitive out of the gate by having no restrictions on when you can get something.

As for the G2s, with how much HC the average PC player has saved up, I don't think it will be a problem, especially if everything is available to you at the beginning with no progression requirements.

My reasoning is even if we vets can still use our legacy mechs, would they even be comparable to G2 mechs in terms of actual power? If they're not, why even bother to use legacy mechs if they're inferior to G2 mechs. I don't want the legacy mechs to become obsolete because those mechs still have classic (and imo the better) setups like Grenadier. Will Gren with dual RevGL outclass my "normal" grenadier with GL?

Tldr: EVen if i had all the G2 mechs, what's the motivation to use legacy mechs if they're going to be worse than newer implementations? Will they be worse? I mean as a dev you probably wouldn't say they'll be worse but the reasoning still stands.

Edited by Sriracha_Sauce, 01 November 2016 - 07:46 AM.

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Can't handle the sauce?


#159
TheButtSatisfier

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Butt, I'm confused.  What point are you arguing?
 

1 - "I went to ground only to improve my game"

 

2 - "Air Scout is not competitive at higher levels of play"

 

3 - The SO is right. Always?

 

I'm confused by your question.

 

I practiced groundscout because I felt like my ground dodging needed to be worked on. After I felt like I learned what I wanted to, I put AC back on my Scout and went my merry way.

 

I don't recall implying or stating that air scout isn't competitive at higher levels of play at any point. On the contrary, I think that airscout can be very competitive at higher levels of play. The extra degree of maneuverability is pretty significant. I know some good scout pilots can forego AC when pubbing, but I think that most of them would probably choose to equip AC if they were in for a serious fight. I could be wrong though.

 

I don't know what you mean by your third question so please clarify that.

 

In summary: I think that AC can be useful when used well, can overexpose someone when used poorly, can certainly be competitive at higher levels, and should be a universal movement mechanic instead of an internal (though I don't care too strongly about that last point). I'm happy to elaborate on any other points.


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#160
StubbornPuppet

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Putting AC on a C-Class, like Rocketeer, does wonders for it's close-quarters chances - especially because higher skill level players don't expect it and it gives time to land a couple of heavy blows before they adapt.
There isn't really any particular post this is a response to... just thought it was something to think about while we're discussing AC.

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 





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