174 replies to this topic

[crockrocket]

 

As for Composite Armor, how do you all feel about making it unable to be equipped at the same time as Heavy Armor?

 

I'd have to see it in action. I think any sort of speed penalty will feel pretty significant, however equipping comp armor in tandem may mitigate the (potentially) increased deaths from the speed penalty.

 

I still think comp armor is conceptually a bad internal because it "rewards" death.

[MomOw]

 

I still think comp armor is conceptually a bad internal because it "rewards" death.

 

This. An internal that add a ~2~5% damage reduction while walking or standing still (not flying, not running, not dodging) would be a nice switch.

[nepacaka]

I actually just went through this morning and hooked up items in the same way internals are hooked up, based on player feedback. You won't be able to equip two items of the same type anymore. So no equipping two EMP items.
nice. 5 EMP or shields in face in morning, it is not what i want to see :D

 

Probably going to tweak the Heavy Armor internal to be 10% penalty to movement, 5% damage reduction instead. I playtested the 10% reduction and that seems a bit much, even with the penalty to speed.
man, have no idea how Brawler with 18m/s boost and 11m/s walk, can be playable for you... but OK. my own opinion, i'm totally agree with 5% and -10%. it is look much better and can be useful, maybe not on all map, but somewhere it can have a sense, on a small maps for example like prosk or origin.

 

As for Composite Armor, how do you all feel about making it unable to be equipped at the same time as Heavy Armor?
i feel good.
c05, how about idea (about you talking before, in another thread) to make composite armor working not only 1 times till you kill enemy, but activate it when player do something or if the some mech condition is sucess.

for example:
Activate +5% armor when player have a less than 30% of max.HP  (i feel that +10 or +15% is too much for 1 slot internal) 
it is mean that if G2-Brawler have 300 HP, He got additional armor. when he repair to 301 HP, internal stop working.
it is also can be a 2 and 3 slots internal, like:
Activate +5% armor when player have a less than 25% of max.HP (1 slot)
Activate +10% armor when player have a less than 25% of max.HP (2 slot)
Activate +15% armor when player have a less than 25% of max.HP (3 slot)

The same idea, based on "Evasive device" mechanism of work.
2 slots internal "Composite Armor" (preffer to rename it into "Active Armor", it have more sense cuz it have activation ^_^)
- Gain +10% Armor when HP is below 25%, and 5% Armor when HP is below 50%.

How about this?

Edited by nepacaka, 26 October 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[CZeroFive]

So I just coded something neat.

 

We can now make 'mini-tech groups' which are items that are incompatible with each other, all while disallowing multiples of the same item with multiple ranks to be equipped. For the sake of design, this system will be used sparingly for edge case scenarios like Heavy Armor, Composite Armor, and other types of armor internals that provide reductions (as pure examples). Going forward this seems like a better idea, and will allow for more flexibility to selections without having situations where you have 5 EMPs.

 

[Amidatelion]

I'd have to see it in action. I think any sort of speed penalty will feel pretty significant, however equipping comp armor in tandem may mitigate the (potentially) increased deaths from the speed penalty.

 

I still think comp armor is conceptually a bad internal because it "rewards" death.

 

I have always, always hated this argument because it makes absolutely no sense in Hawken. It is lazy, trite thinking held over from other games that is not accurately applied to Hawken. There is not a single goddamn situation where dying is advantageous, even in the case of composite armour or possible suicide internals. The fact of the matter is that any death results in an advantage to the enemy team either in straight points or disadvantage in numbers.

 

The only thing that I am willing to concede is that gives them impression of rewarding death, which leads to bad gameplay.

 

Composite armour is busted because its 1 slot and makes C-classes even more stupid good. The core of the idea remains unbroken.

 

So I just coded something neat.

 

We can now make 'mini-tech groups' which are items that are incompatible with each other, all while disallowing multiples of the same item with multiple ranks to be equipped. For the sake of design, this system will be used sparingly for edge case scenarios like Heavy Armor, Composite Armor, and other types of armor internals that provide reductions (as pure examples). Going forward this seems like a better idea, and will allow for more flexibility to selections without having situations where you have 5 EMPs.

 

Neat.

 

Apply to orblord plz.  

 

No seriously, I'm sure people who play Worst TDM would love to gather EU faster while not running around with a broken-ass heal combo.

[PoopSlinger]

I like the idea of positive and negative internals.  I liked them in pre-steam Herken, but I was a terribad player then and didn't know anything about the game balance.

 

Amid, In the case of the raider and its 60 second TURBONITROUS cooldown, dying wasn't so bad.

Edited by PoopSlinger, 26 October 2016 - 04:58 AM.

[nepacaka]

 

 

I have always, always hated this argument because it makes absolutely no sense in Hawken

it working only 1 time and help you kill one people, then it useless and waste a slot.
the same like use "replenisher" on Brawler.

 

 

 

and makes C-classes even more stupid good

yes. and this is another reason to rework it or lower %. especially when console brawler have 900 HP instead 800, and simply got +135HP per 1 slot. tu much, it is 1035 HP, lol. scout can overheat twice before can kill IT xD (jk)

[Amidatelion]

I like the idea of positive and negative internals.  I liked them in pre-steam Herken, but I was a terribad player then and didn't know anything about the game balance.

 

Amid, In the case of the raider and its 60 second TURBONITROUS cooldown, dying wasn't so bad.

 

Still gave up a kill.

[TheButtSatisfier]

There is not a single goddamn situation where dying is advantageous, even in the case of composite armour or possible suicide internals.

 

Dudes killing themselves in 3v3 tourneys to refresh items was definitely a thing that happened.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 26 October 2016 - 06:38 AM.

[Amidatelion]

Dudes killing themselves in 3v3 tourneys to refresh items was definitely a thing that happened.

 

The opposing team's inability to land .5 damage on that mech before exploding is not a failure of gameplay.

[DerMax]

Dudes killing themselves in 3v3 tourneys to refresh items was definitely a thing that happened.

Me killing myself in scrims and tourneys to refresh my Blitz, items and Composite Armor was definitely a thing that happened.

[TheButtSatisfier]

The opposing team's inability to land .5 damage on that mech before exploding is not a failure of gameplay.

 

Even if that were true, it's still an advantageous death by many measures. You said there are no advantageous deaths in Hawken, so I'm not sure what your point is unless we have different definitions of what the advantage is. If a pilot wants to get their items back, it's an advantage. If the pilot doesn't want to give assist points to whoever damaged them, then I suppose it's not advantageous. Is that where you're coming from?

 

In any case, I don't know how much you are exaggerating the .5 damage. To make sure we're on the same page, that's not what happened. One team would wipe the other, then at least one team member on the surviving side would kill themselves. Even if it set them back ~5 seconds in the respawn cycle, with sufficient team coordination they could avoid the enemy and engage at full strength.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 26 October 2016 - 07:34 AM.

[nepacaka]

108 dmg flak
13.50 per bullet
125 dmg tow

-15% damage with composite armor
or the same like have +15% bonus HP

it is 
91.8 - flak
11.47 per bullet
106.25 - tow

or 800 HP + 15% = 920 HP.

7.36 tow rockets to die with composite, and
6.4 tow rockets to die without composite

it is not look like "0.5 more dmg" ;D at least it is +3 second to life before enemy TOW reloading

it is help survive you one flak shot, or +/- one TOW. it can save you life even if you not attack first, or miss one of your tow. also, many ppl use it in siege (even i use composite before and it working good in siege mode, where all what you need to do, going to AA. but now not, because don't want use this)

just right now siege is stupid, because every match in pub veeeery often turns into 4 C-class +  1 inci + 1 tech, the same like very often you can see rocketeer-party in siege at LostEco. because it is working, and people got alot of HP, team based on 5 C's is required long time to beat them all, because life pool, regen+heal+orbs, shields HP (it is also HP, because you need kill shield, or wait till it disappear and waste time, siege mode is all about time), and Composite just adding here even more HP to all enemy team HP. it is make game even slower, even bored, and all what you need to do... put composite on your brawler and feel happy. 

maybe it is harder to see right now in siege (at EU servers), but it just because many good/average players don't play in this game anymore (if you know what i mean :D), now only bunch of nubs play in siege in 0 stars lobby and they don't understand what they really do in game. bu it doesn't mean than this things not working only because nubs don't use it.
 also should notice that this internal present itself like "newbie internal" which should help nubs to play, but in reality nubs very rare use it, mostly it is suicidal raiders and berserkers who just refresh ability, and continue attacking everything till they die without any tactics, just press F and kill someone until enemies don't kill you :P
it is really stupid gameplay. don't teach you nothing except press space, and kill someone faster because u have more armor and +20% more damage, it is really sad :/

[MomOw]

Me killing myself in scrims and tourneys to refresh my Blitz, items and Composite Armor was definitely a thing that happened.

 

in some games the ability cooldown is paused when you die and restart when you respawn. It could be tricky to implement* but it could be a good point.

 

* what happen when you change your mech ? and when you have multiple versions of the same mech ? etc

[nepacaka]

in some games the ability cooldown is paused when you die and restart when you respawn. It could be tricky to implement* but it could be a good point.

this is how hawken was in 2012. i don't know reason why devs deleted global cooldown for items and abilities. 
the same reason why paladin in WoW have a global cooldown on "invilnerability" skill when he die (2 or 5 min, i don't remember correct now, and wow changes since i play last time). Because if not, he can die and everytime back with "egg". it will be a little OP this is why it was nerfed by blizzard devs, to net let paladin spam his very stronk/good ability. it is how things should working.
 

* what happen when you change your mech ? and when you have multiple versions of the same mech ? etc

There is nothing impossible in programming. Game can check it and remember amount of time which is needed to reload ability. like, if you stop play on raider with 35 sec left, and play on other mech, and then return to raider, game still show you 35 sec. If you use another raider, game still show you 35 sec, because it is raider ability.
but you can change different mechs to use all abilities in game one time and die, but it is
1) quite stupid just die without any reason, also, only several mechs have quite good ability for spam, for example, dying on a reaper for refresh ability not cost it.
2) but yes, you can use raider, ss, gren, berserk. and than you still need waiting your time.

my own opinion, it is very help making "replenisher" as a part of your gameplay and strategy, because if people can't easily duying and refresh mechs ability, the "replenisher" is a quite good internal.
I see some people use it on raider before (who not play like stupid, and trying to survive and play like "kill stealing", instead fighting till die at enemy base). 
also, i use Replenisher playing on tech (when doing achieves to kill 500 ppl), but i very fast understand than tech no need this stupid internal, because if you don't care about your k/d ratio, you can die everytime and you've still be a mvp and first place in score table, so, i just change it with fusor or something else, can't remember. and you got nice points when you return at AA and use ability to Heal several teammates to full HP. ez.
 

Edited by nepacaka, 26 October 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[Arkhaun]

this is good for mechs but what aboot maps?

 

im certainly not enjoying the things that were once nifty spots now being meta as hell (for years now)

 

the face when you are in those "dust2" matches where you have to trickshoot "suspicious" spots and harass publords out of their fav entry points

 

[DeeRax]

I see some people use it on raider before (who not play like stupid, and trying to survive and play like "kill stealing", instead fighting till die at enemy base).

I actually use replenisher on one of my raiders semi-regularly.

[6ixxer]

So I just coded something neat.

 

We can now make 'mini-tech groups' which are items that are incompatible with each other, all while disallowing multiples of the same item with multiple ranks to be equipped. For the sake of design, this system will be used sparingly for edge case scenarios like Heavy Armor, Composite Armor, and other types of armor internals that provide reductions (as pure examples). Going forward this seems like a better idea, and will allow for more flexibility to selections without having situations where you have 5 EMPs.

 

*cough* orblord *cough*

[crockrocket]

snip

 

 

I mean that's kind of semantics. Maybe it doesn't outright reward dying when you consider the cost vs benefit, but you do respawn with an advantage you didn't have previously. I still think it is a conceptually poor internal, in addition to the actual numbers being borken.

 

Fully agree with the second half of your comment re:orblord.

Edited by crockrocket, 26 October 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'm of the opinion that the only internal restrictions that should be implemented is the one that prevents internals of the same class from being equipped more than once, like a Armor Fusor MK 1 and Armor Fusor MK 2. The internal restriction system shouldn't be used to address potentially overpowered internal combinations. If such combinations exist, then that's a sign that the internals themselves need to be reworked. It'd be kind of odd to be a player in this game, happily customizing their mech until they try to load out two random internals and a message appears saying, "Stop. That's too powerful, you can't do that." If I were that player, I'd be going, "Wait. I can't equip these two internals together because someone designed them to be too powerful together? Why not just tweak the internals in a clever way so I still want to use them, but they're not OP when they're together?"

 

For example, the new internal that gives more armor at the cost of speed shouldn't work in turret mode (both the speed reduction and armor bonus), and composite armor should be reworked to only give a damage reduction % below a certain health. Those are admittedly very coarse ideas, but I think that we can come up with a few cool ones that'll fit the bill without having a seemingly arbitrary "nono too op" system in place.

 

As for orblord builds, there's a thread 6 pages long chock full of excellent suggestions to address orblording from a lot of players, and it's the most well-thought and mature thread this forum has produced in a long time. I do not accept the argument that those two internals cannot be changed to not be OP - individually or together - without nerfing them to hell.

 

Please don't make the tech restriction system into a nanny system. Change the internals instead. Make us want to use those composite, repair kit, and the extractor internals again by doing something balanced and cool with them.

 

Edit: also, CZeroFive, this thread is legit because you're actively considering our input and engaging us. It's quite refreshing.

 

 

Thanks.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 26 October 2016 - 05:40 PM.

[Rainbow_Sheep]

Just wondering, how difficult/time consuming would adding the current achievements as steam achievements be?

[CZeroFive]

Just wondering, how difficult/time consuming would adding the current achievements as steam achievements be?

 

It'd be rather easy, it's more of finding the time to integrate them. Something like that may have to be done after or on the PC relaunch.

[Evacerberus]

Wow, thank you for the comms, they are GREATLY appreciated! Is there any debate open regarding switching around some of the primaries of any of the mechs? Or maybe giving alternate secondary weapons?

[CZeroFive]

Wow, thank you for the comms, they are GREATLY appreciated! Is there any debate open regarding switching around some of the primaries of any of the mechs? Or maybe giving alternate secondary weapons?

 

Initially we'll be giving the existing console options and importing the options from PC for primary weapons. In the future, we plan to introduce more primaries. Beyond that, there's no talks at this time about alternate secondaries.

[americanbrit14]

Initially we'll be giving the existing console options and importing the options from PC for primary weapons. In the future, we plan to introduce more primaries. Beyond that, there's no talks at this time about alternate secondaries.

well thats all fine and dandy untill you get to the dual wielding mechs, how are they gonna work? Am i gonna be able to have an AR and a Vulcan on my assault at the same time or are we gonna keep it at dual weilds

[crockrocket]

well thats all fine and dandy untill you get to the dual wielding mechs, how are they gonna work? Am i gonna be able to have an AR and a Vulcan on my assault at the same time or are we gonna keep it at dual weilds

 

In my opinion dual wields shouldn't be in the game, or at least included only in a very limited number. I actually like both G2 mechs in current PC hawken as they represent a niche version of their original mech. I think dual wielding should be exclusive to G2's, and I think that G2's should be a unique but limited concept.

[Silverfire]

In my opinion dual wields shouldn't be in the game, or at least included only in a very limited number. I actually like both G2 mechs in current PC hawken as they represent a niche version of their original mech. I think dual wielding should be exclusive to G2's, and I think that G2's should be a unique but limited concept.

 

This is assuming that the devs would be open to the idea of getting rid of the current console power progression model, which I personally doubt they are willing to depart from.

[6ixxer]

well thats all fine and dandy untill you get to the dual wielding mechs, how are they gonna work? Am i gonna be able to have an AR and a Vulcan on my assault at the same time or are we gonna keep it at dual weilds

 

I recall C05 mentioning that some mechs will have their primary and secondary locked. I presume he meant variants like Ass salt G2, etc

[moosa17]

IMO shouldn't have tried to fix what wasn't broken.

[KamikazeCommando]

Ooh, an update... sort of.

 

I do find it just a tad amusing that the console build, that a whole year was wasted spent working on, has more or less been abandoned in favour of turning it back into the PC build, albeit with a few tweaks here and there that will be applied to both console and PC in due course, pending feed back and further testing.

 

Why not start from the PC build to start with and then diverge into the updated ( awful ) console UI, and simply tweak the way things work ( internals, items, weapon customisation etc )? Don't answer that, it was rhetorical.

 

Also, the devs are way over thinking the terminology thing- it doesn't matter if the alternative Primary weapons are called 'alternative', or 'prestige', or 'additional', that is totally not worth worrying about. You simply have your default primary, then two additional ones you can either buy with MC, or unlock through grinding and HC at certain pilot/mech levels. The PC build is fine in this respect, and I don't believe offering more than 3 Primaries in total for every mech is a good idea, as you run the risk of having unbalanced mechs with rather random weapon loadouts, which negates the whole idea of having different classes or roles for each mech. 

 

But yay, updates, sort of...

[Hink]

Such engagement...

While I love the addition of "positive/negative" internals, I think they should weight in more and cause a real change to how you could normally play that specific mech. Essentially I'm asking that these "positive/negative" internals become a game changer, a switch that flips the formula. On the other hand...The example that was given and the point that "nepacake" make is valid, but the update that was give in a later post fixes this, so... :P

Five weapons per-mech? madness!  I think the comments made here speak some real truth in both regards to the primary role of specific mech and the dangers of unbalance mech weapons combos. The current system on pc side works, and the reason why is because it keep mechs in their intended roles. If more weapons are indeed coming then a simple addition/solution is an additional slot making for a total of 4 weapons to choose from instead of the 3 on pc. 

[Morquedeas]

This kind of communication is certainly a welcome improvement!  I think the Hawken "elite" are a valuable resource and most of us are glad to provide input.

 

The weapon stuff all sounds fine, nothing really different for a PC player.  Choosing 2 different items with 3 charges each is fine, I rarely ran three 1-use items anyways.  Not sure how the replenishes would be implemented however.

 

The internal changes suggest sound reasonable.  I'd actually suggest bringing up the value of the basic and normal extractors to 2.5 and 5 percent, respectively.  At 2% there is almost no point in taking it at all, even if they do have a history of being strong.  You could also give them a separate value for EU extraction, although that would be kinda pointless as no one ever takes them for the EU extraction speed, and EU extraction speed isn't really game changing anyways...

 

Repair kit values look solid.

 

I like the idea of 4 slot "expert" internals, and the upside/downside internals.  The concept is fine, but balancing them might be a challenge.

 

I think composite armor just need the DR cut in half for now.  It might still get banned in competitive play but it wouldn't be such a strong bonus for 1 slot.

 

Balancing multiple DR sources could be a challenge.  I think you'd want to either employ a heavy diminishing returns system, or probably better, a "highest value only" system.  Like while using normal deflectors (20%dr while boosting/dodging) and composite armor (20% dr after death), just give the highest value at any one time, so while boosting you'd just get 20% dr instead of 40%.  So in a vanguard turret mode + composite armor would just default to the turret mode DR value.  On the downside, this would make composite armor and the armor internal somewhat pointless for someone who spends a lot of time in turret mode.

 

The shock turret looks cool, but without seeing it in action or having some real data, I can't say anything.  Don't remove turret stomping, this would shaft some mechs that have an agonizing time dealing with deployables with their weapons.

[bacon_avenger]

(Once again, really behind in notifications and such.  Real life, keeping me from my games, boo.)

 

So, one of the coders is posting and there is talk of bringing back 'internals from alpha/beta' (back when Hawken was still good, IMO) that have a positive and negative side.

 

This is something I've been wanting to see happen since the ascension patch.

 

http://www.ign.com/wikis/hawken/Items<- A list of the internals I mention from beta, scroll down to the Offensive/Defensive Internal sections.

 

I also have to mention that I'm not crazy about the idea of adding even more powerful internals/items.  There is enough vertical progression as is, I really don't think it needs any more, if not remove it outright which was the original 'vision' for Hawken in the beginning.

 

Frankly, I had all but given up hope, but with this thread and news on design decisions...  I guess we will see if I'm going to be dusting off my cupcake anytime soon.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 26 October 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[6ixxer]

Oh look- countermeasures, battery charge.
Reduces duration of emp.

[CZeroFive]

Oh look- countermeasures, battery charge.
Reduces duration of emp.

 

I wasn't able to actually find that in our repository for internals. So if it existed at one point, it's gone. I am sure it wouldn't be hard to recreate though.

[DerMax]

I wasn't able to actually find that in our repository for internals. So if it existed at one point, it's gone. I am sure it wouldn't be hard to recreate though.

That's not an internal, it was one of the "countermeasures" that you could use in-game additionally. They were later reworked into the stuff you use in Coop.

[KamikazeCommando]

That's not an internal, it was one of the "countermeasures" that you could use in-game additionally. They were later reworked into the stuff you use in Coop.

 

Is there not an equivalent in-game still, though? I've hit a few guys square in the face at point blank range with an EMP and they carry on firing as if nothing happened...

[StubbornPuppet]

Is there not an equivalent in-game still, though? I've hit a few guys square in the face at point blank range with an EMP and they carry on firing as if nothing happened...

I believe that what you experienced was, in my experience, either another of the cheats or extreme lag. I've seen it too and it's... baffling. There is no internal that provides immunity from EMP's.

[KamikazeCommando]

I believe that what you experienced was, in my experience, either another of the cheats or extreme lag. I've seen it too and it's... baffling. There is no internal that provides immunity from EMP's.

 

Glad I'm not just imaging it then- I'm gonna call hacks since the emp plays the 'detonation' effect when it impacts them, rather than just going right through them...

[Meraple]

I'm gonna call hacks since the emp plays the 'detonation' effect when it impacts them, rather than just going right through them...

I've had situations in the current PC version where an enemy EMP'd me at point-blank yet only they were affected.

I didn't mind (it was hilarious), but I'm guessing it can be a bit buggy.