78 replies to this topic

[Exomedia]

How come I never really hear any similar complaints about the ISM disruptor?

 

Granted, for some strange reason, I've never really encountered that many people using the EMP and ISM on me so I don't have sodium levels to know where I stand on this matter due to not facing it often enough to know the terror of the EMP.

This is also compounded by the fact I've only ever bought 3 items ever (a barricade for the CRT, a Shield for the Vanguard, and a Scrambler for the Brawler) and never used the EMP and ISM except on test drives, which are few and far between; too busy saving for mechs and buying internals which I concur, are far more powerful over all compared to items.

 

I've also heard the ISM is also considered vastly inferior to the EMP; in that case, would making the ISM contact operated like the detonator without air burst be too much of a buff?

Edited by Exomedia, 10 May 2015 - 06:08 PM.

[AngryOgre]

Well I'm fine with ism because at least you can still shoot and move and try to hit stuff. EMP is just super abusive because it effects so much and in such a large radius. All weapons lock, all items lock, shields get knocked out, special abilities get knocked out. And not just to one target, to everything it touches. It's a really really powerful tool with minor draw backs like bounce and friendly fire

[Rei]

It's a double edged sword, it can get you too. It's hard to hit someone long range with it and if you're too close then you hit yourself with it as well.

I still think it's a necessary evil. On a tangent, I think blockade should get a duration buff/height buff since it can deflect EMPs.

[Blaz0re]

The first buff the barricade needs is to make it appear instantly if you need it. If you just tap the button it should pop up at the same time and not fly on the ground, maybe bounce around and then open up. This way you could actively block launched TOWs, seekers or EMPs and bounce EMPs back to the enemies who launched them. 

Would help against EMP overuse and buff the barricade, which is rarely used and even more rarely use well without any teamblocks/kills involved.

[Shoutaxeror]

If you're playing G2 raider I can understand your bitterness. If you are EMPed after pressing F, your ability stops, you have no fuel left, and you're just fuzzy bunnyed in most situations. Well, I agree that I'm yolodiving way too much lately, but I 've always thought that was unfair.

But I love EMPs.

Edited by Shoutaxeror, 11 May 2015 - 02:52 AM.

[n3onfx]

If you're playing G2 raider I can understand your bitterness. If you are EMPed after pressing F, your ability stops, you have no fuel left, and you're just fuzzy bunnyed in most situations. Well, I agree that I'm yolodiving way too much lately, but I 've always thought that was unfair.

But I love EMPs.

 

It is dumb that EMP shuts down some abilities, I get that it shuts down cloak for example but yeah shutting down the G2 Raider ability is just too punishing compared to some other abilities.

 

edit: Also allowing items to be deployed while under the EMP effect or shortening the delay before you can use items could work. EMP would still be a very powerful item but the person being EMP's would have a choice; flee until the effect wears off, or deploy an orb to tank some damage/ a shield to dance while waiting.

Edited by n3onfx, 11 May 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[phed]

Emp is really strong against incinerators as well, they lose all thier heat, it's like a double duration against them. That's enough time drop a holo, teabag taunt, and a flying 180� for maximum cheese.

I would like a barricade buff on deployment time, maybe on size too but not height; they should be jumpable.

Remember when a 2-slot barricade was wider than a 1-slot? They should be that size... or maybe even bigger like the 3-slotter was.

Edited by phed, 11 May 2015 - 04:11 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

The EMP is fine.

• If it didn't require any forethought, aim and timing to use effectively, it'd be a different story, but it does.
• You have to be aware of and anticipate where your teammates will be going so you're not "that guy" who just got your team killed by your own hand. It does NO damage, so it's also a bit of a bravery based weapon - you have to plan on committing to an attack and hope that your EMP hits it's target... and that there's not another enemy that you didn't hit with it waiting when you rush in for the kill on the one you did hit.
• It requires you to sacrifice some other item(s) to have it equipped.
• It's got a really obvious and long warning for enemies in the vicinity.
• It's really only useful against C-Class mechs - you can hit A's and B's with it if you're lucky, but they usually have plenty of time to just dodge and/or jump high enough to be out of range and right back up your butt.
• As for the shield: every item needs a counter or negative - without the EMP, the shield has no consequence or down-side.

[AngryOgre]

If EMP is kept in the game, I would like to see it's duration be shorter or the amount of effects it has be lessened. I can't think of another item that has so many effects when it goes off. I think it a prime candidate for examination and rebalancing. I mean, it removes a lot of player agency when under its effects.

[StubbornPuppet]

Was reading a bit more of the above and decided to comment more:

 

ISM disrupter is practically useless.  IF it hits me, which it rarely does because of how easy it is to avoid, even it's maximum level of disruption isn't enough to mess me up too much.  I already know where I am, where I was aiming, where the enemy is and I can just keep on firing and moving until my vision clears up.  YAWN.  I suggest no fixes or adjustments to the ISM Disrupter, just get rid of it.

 

I love the idea about making the Barricade actually useful via "insta-deploy" technology.  If it were actually capable of popping up within about 1 to 1.5 seconds, cool.  I might actually consider using that item.

[_incitatus]

Was reading a bit more of the above and decided to comment more:

 

ISM disrupter is practically useless.  IF it hits me, which it rarely does because of how easy it is to avoid, even it's maximum level of disruption isn't enough to mess me up too much.  I already know where I am, where I was aiming, where the enemy is and I can just keep on firing and moving until my vision clears up.  YAWN.  I suggest no fixes or adjustments to the ISM Disrupter, just get rid of it.

 

I love the idea about making the Barricade actually useful via "insta-deploy" technology.  If it were actually capable of popping up within about 1 to 1.5 seconds, cool.  I might actually consider using that item.

 

Yeah, ISM is kinda a joke really.  You can still see what you're doing.  "Blind" kills are a bit satisfying though... 

 

Maybe it should just toatlly blackout your screen? 

[IareDave]

EMPs are one of the very few competitive items in the game. Its essentially what this game needs more of - high risk, high reward (at least when compared to the other only good item in the game - the orb - which requires little thought to place ideally).

[Blaz0re]

I don't quite get where the risk in using EMPs is. Sure, you can hit yourself, but even a mediocre player can tell when to launch it and when not to if it's too close.
Especially if you want to flee from enemies, just boost through a narrow area near to you, throw an emp behind and if someone followed you, now he will stay away from the radius or will be hit by it most likely. No risk involved at all.

I rather think that the EMP is NOT competetive because of it's huge radius compared to all of the effects it has. For me a competetive item would be an EMP with a very very small radius, maybe the size of an a class mech, and the ability to only destroy a shield OR stun a mech and not both at the same time. If you see someone inside a shield it's mostly a free double EMP hit with a huge surface to hit. Also the EMP's effect might last longer or have an additional effect, maybe to screw up the HUD so you can't see your heat, health and radar until you started repairing once or something like that, to give a bigger edge to the player skilled enough to hit it.

But I think my view on 'competetive' items differ greatly from yours IareDave, I think it should be highly rewarding but very hard to master.

[IareDave]

I don't quite get where the risk in using EMPs is. 

There is a 7 second cooldown on items (5 with internal that no one uses except hestoned). If you miss an EMP, cool. Not a big issue, however, you could of dropped an orb and regened 120+ HP. That's a risk, albeit not a huge one which is why I listed the orb example in my original post as a comparison. 

 

I rather think that the EMP is NOT competetive because of it's huge radius compared to all of the effects it has. For me a competetive item would be an EMP with a very very small radius, maybe the size of an a class mech, and the ability to only destroy a shield OR stun a mech and not both at the same time. 

Competitive relates to it's performance against skilled players. A scanner would be a very competitive item and run by every single player in Hawken TPG scrims if it weren't banned and universally regarded as overpowered. 

 

 I think it should be highly rewarding but very hard to master.

I'd argue that it does require skill against anything other than C classes. Generally most people use them as shield destroyers, and used defensively to push people out of certain points or punish them for taking small corridor routes. Getting the EMP to actually trigger it's effect (not the side effect of moving people away from a spot) doesn't happen as often as you think. 

[Rei]

It's very good at dispersing and splitting enemies up too. I would like other items to be brought up to their level of strength.

Edited by Rei, 11 May 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[kasei]

If it didn't require any forethought, aim and timing to use effectively, it'd be a different story, but it does.

Every item requires some forethought, aim and timing to be effective. Some more than others of course, but ultimately it still applies. I'd argue using holograms takes more forethought to use effectively :P

It requires you to sacrifice some other item(s) to have it equipped.

That literally applies to every item the exact same way.

It's got a really obvious and long warning for enemies in the vicinity.

Which is moot point at close range. I do understand the increased risk the user has when using it at close range, except when running away.

As for the shield: every item needs a counter or negative - without the EMP, the shield has no consequence or down-side.

The consequence or down-side of the shield is that it's just as effective for everyone on the map. Except the Predator.

[BaronSaturday]

How come I never really hear any similar complaints about the ISM disruptor?

Granted, for some strange reason, I've never really encountered that many people using the EMP and ISM on me so I don't have sodium levels to know where I stand on this matter due to not facing it often enough to know the terror of the EMP.
This is also compounded by the fact I've only ever bought 3 items ever (a barricade for the CRT, a Shield for the Vanguard, and a Scrambler for the Brawler) and never used the EMP and ISM except on test drives, which are few and far between; too busy saving for mechs and buying internals which I concur, are far more powerful over all compared to items.

I've also heard the ISM is also considered vastly inferior to the EMP; in that case, would making the ISM contact operated like the detonator without air burst be too much of a buff?

Because on my laptop with everything set to noobputer, I can see through it kinda. Shhhhhhhhh. They do need to fix that...

[Nept]

I love the idea about making the Barricade actually useful via "insta-deploy" technology.  If it were actually capable of popping up within about 1 to 1.5 seconds, cool.  I might actually consider using that item.

 

You should consider using that item regardless.  It's always hilarious - especially on the tighter maps like Wreckage.  Sometimes you trap enemies, sometimes you trap teammates, sometimes you trap yourself!

[Flifang]

Leave my barricade alone. It's perfect. Insta-deploy would turn it into a panick button that requires zero forethought into using. The deploy delay is perfect for shooting at an enemy one last time before it goes down. Fast mechs can get past it after you throw it, effectively blocking enemy escape. You need to explore its uses before suggesting such a huge change. Did you know that if you throw a barricade directly into the center of a jump pad, it goes up on the jump pad the same as any mech would and then deploy once it reaches the top? Same with ISM. I use ISM on my EOC predator to make use of my mines better. Even if they see me through the blur they won't be looking at their feet where my mines are being placed/already were placed.

I think items are rather balanced. Albeit some are stronger and more all around usable anywhere than others, but that's what they're thete for: diversity.

[Blaz0re]

Getting the EMP to actually trigger it's effect (not the side effect of moving people away from a spot) doesn't happen as often as you think. 

 

I started using the triple EMP on my raider myself and i get it to hit 1 enemy most of the time, often it's multiple hits since I play a lot of siege and in the AA area it's pretty hard to miss it. At least 2 of my 3 EMP's will trigger the effect. It's just really not that hard, even to bounce it off the ground or off walls, it's quite predictable.

 

I tried the barricade, but I think with the time it takes to pop atm it's much more of a passive item you use in advance to block an escape path after flanking the enemy. I'd rather have at least the option to make it open up instantly, would be a great benefit and would require a good reaction time to use it right.

The ISM in combat is mostly just a worse version of the EMP I think. But I still like it on my pred, to sneak up behind somebody, shoot my burst dmg and hit him with the ISM at the same time, just to get back behind the corner and automatically recloack so he doesn't know what hit him. With an EMP he just could turn around and get my exact position.

[AngryOgre]

I'd be down with emp taking out HUD and radar, but striping a player of any kind of retaliation seems like a high reward for little risk

[Jelooboi]

Don't get caught unawares in those tight corners. Watch your radar. Dodge into cover. Dodge into a situation where the player will EMP themselves. Don't dodge and just facecheck with your higher HP.

 

As to any of these complaints re: a G2R I'd recommend watching vid by ThirdEye, Flifang and Poopslinger. Also Jelooboi but I don't know if he has anywhere he uploads to.

I was thinking about it but my hard drive speed sucks big donkey balls. 72mbps jajajajaja [I want to record highest quality]

So about the emps, yep I completely despise them but I've given it a love/hate relationship so far. The A class pilots especially like to toss those dumb sheilds, throw and emp and bam, they run back home to their mommy.

One thing I would like changed, AT LEAST is to let my ability still be active when I get emp'd so I can fricken gtfo because ur ***** *** won't fight man to man.

[ArchMech]

learning curve

skill ceiling

 

answer is-larger community

Edited by ArchMech, 19 July 2015 - 10:16 PM.

[HepTagoN]

Hi Guys,

 

so I always had a problem with the EMP in this game. It's radius, the effects duration, the ability to throw it a long distance, everything just seemed OP, like a free kill if you hit it and it really isn't that hard, especially in siege where many enemies are close to each other.

Am I the only one who thinks this item is completely broken? I play a lot of G2R lately and the EMP quickly became my biggest enemy.
It's always the same:
Case 1: Enemy throws tow/grenade at me, i dodge. Short time after i can't dodge again so i get the emp in my face and there's nothing i can do.
Case 2: I throw down a bubble, stay inside. EMP hits the Shield and ALSO hits me inside (even if i stand in the middle of it or even more behind). No shield, no weapon --> Death in the open field.
Case 3: Especially in close quarters, i get surprised by a lot of enemies, try to escape and get my G2 Blitz on, but the bouncing of walls EMP hits me, and even my ability gets broken down.

The absolute best of course is when I try to save a teammate with a bubble shield, it gets EMPd, we both are jammed and abilities work neither. Makes perfect sense, it just destroys teamwork.

Is there some kind of magic trick i didn't notice or is there something i do wrong all the time? Am I the only one experiencing this? In my opinion EMPs would need a heavy nerf, at least the ability to only affect 1 mech or shield at a time, or to be thrown out the game completely, i wouldn't miss them at all, especially since they make many other items completely useless.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

No emps at all? UNLIMITED BUBBBBBBLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 No way. People spam shields even more than emps. We could consider removing both items. But no 1 of it. If you stay into shield u deserve for and you will be EMPed. Just stay outside and use it as barrier. Simple.

 

@Amidatelion

I can't always dodge while running away, many maps got tight corridors where you always will be trapped by an EMP. I don't get how I can get better at dodging when there clearly is a a time frame after dodging where you can't dodge again and this is where i get hit with the emp. I need to get close with the G2R and a good enemy player will have no problem at all to time it and hit it right in this time frame.
I get that it should counter the shield, but in this case it would be completely sufficient to destroy the shield and not stun everything inside it. That's just too much in my opinion.

 

Vulcan gren ehre i also have to get close to enemy to deal full damage, getting emped in face dont happen so much often, usually its hard to emp enemy by firing straight into him. Shields are much easier.

 

It disables everyone who was confortable enough to get nice chillout in that bubble. Shield protect u from all damage -> but it might be risky. U wanna have it no downsides at all, dont u.

 

My problem with the EMP is when everyone has them. This is at it's worst in Siege on Last Eco. I'm still a proponent of have items restricted to certain mechs. There would be universals like orbs, dets, shield, barriers, HETs, heat charges, and turrets, but scanner, scramblers, EMPs, ISMs all seem purpose built for certain classes. For instance, I think the pred and infil could get outstanding use out of the EMP and ISM to circumvent dropping out of stealth. Scrams seem to work well on the raider and scoot. Scanners are great forvreapers and SS. New items would need to be developed, but that's my feeling.

 

 

That would break whole balance.

 

That.

 

EMP and shield are two sides of the same coin.

Choosing which to pack on your mech is a bit like paper scissors stone. There's always one thing eliminating the other.

 

This.

 

 

Except the EMP always wins over the shield. And while it's at it, it also stuns your mech.

Had some rounds yesterday, where i played EMP myself and well, that was fun, free kills everywhere.
Siege on Origin, throwing EMPs randomly in the area of AA, rushing in with ability, everynone is stunned and it's a giant shredding. Not to mention the Incinerators who absolutely don't stand any chance since they have got a really long downtime to heat up again.
When they shield up an repair behind the AA and the shield goes a bit through the wall, just EMP it and everybody around dies, simple as that.

If the EMP destroys the shield and only the shield and doesn't stun the mech inside that would still be finde for the countering argument but not as incredibly OP. Often the Mechs inside are repairing anyways, so there's a natural advantage.

 

How its winning over shield? They anihilate each other. Just. You drop shield -> i have to sacrafice my EMP to take it down instead of some juicy mech. You shield rendered to be useless -> so my EMP, too.

 

That's you fault if you are lost cause of staing inside shield.

 

Moreover to use shield u just press item key -> profit. For me to disable you i have to do my best @ aiming you. Easy to hit shield, harder to emp deathball, hard to hit single mech, because of its funny arc. I got used to (any many others as well) its strange behaviour so now i can use it with better accuracy but still.

[HepTagoN]

I was thinking about it but my hard drive speed sucks big donkey balls. 72mbps jajajajaja [I want to record highest quality]

So about the emps, yep I completely despise them but I've given it a love/hate relationship so far. The A class pilots especially like to toss those dumb sheilds, throw and emp and bam, they run back home to their mommy.

One thing I would like changed, AT LEAST is to let my ability still be active when I get emp'd so I can fricken gtfo because ur ***** *** won't fight man to man.

 

Strange - its not disabling grenadier's ability (except makes useless anyway cause it will disapprear before/second after EMP effect wear off).

Not affecting ability should take place indeed

[HK-47D]

EMP = AWESOME SAUCE!

[Arkhaun]

i like emp because its an assured gtfo

 

however i dont think its op since erry body gets hit 

and ive seen whole teams can trade isms, emps, and Heat Charges for some great fights

 

also so what if its your particular pet peeve, just adjust to how its used in most fights and try using it yourself to really feel the way it works (not saying you havent did/considered this, just suggesting taking another look at how you approach emp involved fights).

[KejiGoto]

Really wondering how many complaining about EMP here have ever dealt with the old setup where it just fired in a straight line and the moment it came into contact with anything it created a huge AOE that screwed up anyone within it and lasted forever.

 

I hear tales that there are still people from the first build of the game waiting to get their mech back online but can't thanks to stun lock.

 

Personally I think EMP is right where it needs to be right now. It helps keep aggressive players at bay and works perfectly for breaking up death balls or just to counter the glorified Shield game that has become such a staple for Hawken since shooting through Shields became a thing. 

 

Unlike most other items that are heavily used in Hawken (Repair Charge and Scanner for example) EMP actually requires skill to use and to use it well. Knowing the arc it takes, getting down distance, learning the radius size, and accounting for travel time are all factors in being successful with your EMP use. Throwing a Scanner down, standing on top of a Repair Charge, littering the ground with turrets, none of those take actual skill to benefit from or use, you simply use them and immediately start enjoying the benefits of them and they can't really come back to bite you in the rear if you misuse. Sure you can lay down a Repair Charge and lose that position to the enemy or set a Scanner down where it can easily be destroyed but none of these can be suddenly turned against you because you used it too soon or just missed completely.

 

EMP is also one of the few items in the game that works in a variety of situations and lets the user operate on a risk vs reward system. What I mean here is when I'm playing my EOC Infil I'm rather squishy so element of surprise is what I'm all about. Catching people off guard from behind with EMP is a great way to throw off a team and net me some free kills but I also constantly use EMP to put distance between myself and people who are getting too close. Raiders and G2 Raiders are suckers for rushing me and getting an EMP right in the face which also hits me as well. I don't care because all I want to do is shut their attack down and use that moment to get away safely and it work. Not many other items in the game allow you that kind of flexibility and all of this revolves around skill.

 

Countering EMP takes skill as well. When I learn someone has EMP and likes to use it I take this into consideration when attacking them. I make sure I'm approaching from an area where EMP's use is minimized and I can easily get out of the way or retreat if I'm hit by it. On the flip side I'll nail someone in the face with EMP when they rush me only to have them do it three or four more times and by the end of the match they are cursing MY NAME because they couldn't figure out turning on Blitz and rushing straight at me is a bad idea.

 

Countering other items isn't so much of a skill game as it is just knowing the item. Thing like turret all you can really do is either stay out their sight or quickly destroy them. Repair Charges your choice is either force them off of it and move away from the area so they can't orb lord. Scanner? Find it and destroy it, there's no other way around it. Det, HE Charge, and ISM are the only other skill based items I can think of that requires the user to demonstrate some level of skill to use them well and I personally think Hawken needs more of that and less of the hand holding nonsense where the user doesn't have to improve at all. This goes for items, internals, abilities, and weapons. 

 

When things are made too easy to use suddenly the skill based stuff becomes unfair because people aren't going to take the time to get good with something when the other option just hands it to them. 

[Amidatelion]

[CraftyDus]

I'm a fan of the projectiles that show some physicality to the world of Hawken.
I'm also a fan of emping monsters in turkeys who have gotten the jump on my reaper like jelooboi, onstrava, and poopslinger.
They make these close encounters with murderous damage and huge health pools survivable, if I can just nail that skillshot.

[Kopra]

Holy necro. Seeing as the game hasn't really changed however, it's still relevant.

I would say the EMP mechanics are fine, but it's similarly a very a very important item in offensive, defensive and countering aspects. Maybe too important? It can counter a lot of bull excrement in the game, like sloppy C-classes, Shield spam and somewhat soft counter Orbs by "poisoning" the orb area. A single good EMP can win the whole team vs team encounter, while a bad one can make your team lose it. Must be one of the reasons why using EMP feels good while Orbs feel kind of dirty.

[DieselCat]

Yes Keji, I also do remember the 7 second  and giant AOE the size of a city block EMP...ugh!

But I agree with all the points you are making about the EMP, that it's in a pretty good place ATM and how it does take skill to use effectively as opposed to certain other items in the game.

 

I always carry the EMP with me, though my aim with it generally sucks (it does take skill and practice to use it well ) I mostly miss my target or end up EMPing one of my team-mates in the ass and don't always have the correct distance figured out for optimum impact at longer ranges.

 

So what I find myself mostly doing is using it as a disruption of area denial against the other team when I see they are in large groups that can overwhelm my team. I think the duration and AOE are good and like the fact that is can be used as a deterrent against shields and that nasty practice of orb loading   

 

It's uses are innumerable...as a tactical, offensive or defensive weapon given the situation. Yes I get peeved when I get suckered into getting hit by that same player more than once...but it's part of the game and I find it fun and use those occurrences to turn the tables the next time to my advantage so it becomes more of a chess match of wits (or half-wits if you will )

 

I don't know if usage should be limited more in game (I don't think so) but others that find EMPs unsavory might want to explore it's uses more and practice becoming better with it, like I do.        

[MomOw]

I love when it's raining gr33n jelly

 

[crockrocket]

Out of all items, I think shields and emps are the best balanced in current hawken. They provide the most dynamic gameplay (especially when combined), and neither is in my mind OP.

[HugeGuts]

I too think problem items of EMP and Shield are now in a reasonable enough place. Perfect? Nah. But acceptable.

 

Problem isn't these items being OP. Problem is other items not being interesting enough to use.

[Gyrocopter]

I have broken down your argument.

• The EMP has too low risk

Well, it is very easy to miss it or dodge it. If you mean there is no downside to using items, why would there be?

• There shouldn't be an item to both counter shield and do something else

That is not true. Items should not have the sole purpose of countering other items. If any item were competitively viable for the sole purpose of countering another item, that other item would be OP.

 

 

I think you think the EMP is OP because it effectively counters your playstyle as a G2 raider. However, as a G2 raider, you don't have to rely on shields as much as you imply you have been. Cornerplay, sneak attacks, and creative dodging should be sufficient to effectively fight ranged characters.

[Dew]

I personally think EMPs should bounce off shields without detonating, but still deactivate shields if they're within the explosion radius.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Emps should shut you down totally for a second to where you are dead in the water and your mech has to reboot. Similar to overheating in mech warrior. Make the range and area smaller to where you are always taking the chance to emp yourself when you use it.... Or more of a chance than you currently have... Right Diesel ;)

[JackVandal]

I personally think EMPs should bounce off shields without detonating, but still deactivate shields if they're within the explosion radius.

i cant wait til someone fires an emp, the shield deploys just in time to bounce the emp back into the face of the guy who shot it, new shield meta.