66 replies to this topic

[Onstrava]

    So I was messing around in my Rocketeer on Hawken today and I found out I love missiles....alot. But the current way the missiles are works, but isn't very effective. So I have a simple suggestion that I'm sure people wouldn't hate to much. Less missiles more damage. I know I know you read that part >>more damage<< and are screaming

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

HOLD ON WAIT COMEBACK!! Let me explain first! This change has happened before with the Predator's mines. The last developers lessened the amount of mines needed for the predator from I believe 10 or 12 to now 8, but they increased the damage on the mines to put it back to normal again. I'm suggesting the same thing with the hellfires. Currently the hellfires shoot 6 missiles to do okay damage but you have to hit them with all 6 missiles for max output which doesn't happen frequently. I find that the majority of the time some of the missiles hit walls and what not while the other half hits its target. I'm suggesting changing the missiles to 2 missiles instead of 6, it will still do the same amount of damage but the amount of missiles needed will be lessened. This design change is already visible in the game as seen below.

 

See the pod only has 2 missiles on them yet it's shooting 6 at the same time..I know what you're thinking right now.                 WHOOOOAAAAAA!!!

 

But seriously this small yet highly improved change would help out a lot more than you think. You will have higher hit confirms and there wouldn't need to be any sort of revolutionary change to the mechs that use hellfires. So that's what is on my mind today, so what do you think? I want to here your ideas on this or maybe changing something else. Any sort of ideas will help of course no matter what they are but the feed back is always important.

Edited by Onstrava, 02 August 2015 - 04:02 AM.

[nepacaka]

   

 

See the pod only has 2 missiles on them yet it's shooting 6 at the same time..I know what you're thinking right now.                 WHOOOOAAAAAA!!!

 

 

U just don't think about it. i know it is a bomb on picture, but add a little imagination, it is a game =)

with 2 rocketts HF is not look badass, like it look with 6. it is better in terms of design

 

 

also, i agree with damage increasing for HF, because problem in seeker, not in HF

Edited by nepacaka, 02 August 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[nepacaka]

Also, i suggest a different way to change rocketeer in general.

- decrease seeker firerate. (or damage)

- increase HF damage

- probably, delete "warning sound" from HF. when TOW rockets flying in you spine, you don't hear it. why you should get a warning from HF?

 

this make a rocketeer with EOC and Heat stronger, and not changed Seeketeer DPS.

[Onstrava]

Also, i suggest a different way to change rocketeer in general.

- decrease seeker firerate. (or damage)

- increase HF damage

- probably, delete "warning sound" from HF. when TOW rockets flying in you spine, you don't hear it. why you should get a warning from HF?

 

this make a rocketeer with EOC and Heat stronger, and not changed Seeketeer DPS.

I admit I never thought of getting rid of the warning sound for HF. I see your mind set on this since the tow doesn't have one when its shot. I wonder how effective the HF mechs would be then? Worth pondering.

[nepacaka]

i don't know how about effectiveness, but it generates a tonnes of whining :D

[Onstrava]

U just don't think about it. i know it is a bomb on picture, but add a little imagination, it is a game =)

with 2 rocketts HF is not look badass, like it look with 6. it is better in terms of design

 

 

also, i agree with damage increasing for HF, because problem in seeker, not in HF

Okay this was a pain to find but I did find a cool animation they could use when it comes to just using 2 missiles. They could use a similar animation from the Wipeout series, and with this I'm off the bed ~,~. SKIP TO 0:55

Edited by Onstrava, 02 August 2015 - 05:36 AM.

[HepTagoN]

Alright, u have my vote. Onstrava and his suggestion for president!

 

Nerfing seeker is not good. Nefring any aspect of rocketeer is nononononono. They are poor guys already. Let them be.

[Panzermanathod]

 

- probably, delete "warning sound" from HF. when TOW rockets flying in you spine, you don't hear it. why you should get a warning from HF?

It's not so much the HF moreso the lock on. Dumbfiring Hellfires won't cause a warning. But getting locked on while they are fired will

[Hyginos]

- probably, delete "warning sound" from HF. when TOW rockets flying in you spine, you don't hear it. why you should get a warning from HF?

 

Because they lock on. Tow rockets are dumbfire and therefore require some actual skill to land. It also make sense that a lock on would be detectable by the target just from a realism standpoint.

 

I for for one in happy to let HF stay weak against stronger players until they get a major mechanical overhaul.

[nepacaka]

Nerfing seeker is not good. Nefring any aspect of rocketeer is nononononono. They are poor guys already. Let them be.

 

i say "Nerf seeker, and buff HF". not only "Nerf seeker"

 

if you don't notice, nobody play on EOC and Heat-Rocketeer, just because it unplayable right now, and deal a less damage if compared with seeker. plus, rocketeer with EOC/Heat have a several serious drawback (yeah, it also have a some advantages, but this is not enough), which seeker rocketer don't have.

 

Do you think it's normal that we have mech playble only on 30%?

 

Predict a questions. if you trying say something like "you just don't know how" or "it working normal with Heat"
just play on heat rock and look how it effective, and how many kill you get (againt normal players).

 

So, it is obviously, Rocketeer should be changed !

And rocketeer should be playable and effective with all three weapons, and not only with seeker. stronger HF can make him more viable agains brawler or assault, for example. and automatically buff Heat/EOC rockee.

 

Actually, we can't buff EOC of Heat directly. if we do this, infiltrator and scout will be OP. so, only one way to change it - buff HF. and slightly nerf seeker to save current rocketeer DPS at the same state. it is not "Nerfing", but "changing".

 

 

Because they lock on. Tow rockets are dumbfire and therefore require some actual skill to land. It also make sense that a lock on would be detectable by the target just from a realism standpoint.

 

TOW have a mid-air detonation, HF have a guiding. it will be normal if you do not hear the rockets when you not see a rocketeer.

most of time when i play, even if i don't see enemy i just hear "ding-dong" and tying dodging behind cover/wall. i can evade rocketeer attack just because i hear it.

[crockrocket]

Though, fewer missiles would fewer chances to hit. In game testing would be needed in order to see if this would actually play out as you illustrate in your suggestion. I think it has potential though.

[Panzermanathod]

 

if you don't notice, nobody play on EOC and Heat-Rocketeer, just because it unplayable right now,

Ketchup'Jizah is an EOC-Rocketeer more often than not. Ketchup is displeased in your hyperbole.

 

 

 

 it will be normal if you do not hear the rockets when you not see a rocketeer.

 

 

Realistically, this makes no sense.

[nepacaka]

Ketchup'Jizah is an EOC-Rocketeer more often than not. Ketchup is displeased in your hyperbole.

 

 

do you mean this?

 

Spoiler

Accuracy.Fired.WeaponHomingMissile -34511

Accuracy.Fired.WeaponRepeater -5708

Accuracy.Fired.WeaponSeeker -19541

Accuracy.Hit.WeaponHomingMissile -22146

Accuracy.Hit.WeaponRepeater - 1572

Accuracy.Hit.WeaponSeeker - 6770

 

Ketchup'Jizah which use Seeker in 80% time, and make a 0 (zero) shoot from Heat-cannon?

 

Yeah, it is very significant to say something opposite about my EOC/Heat hyperbole, given the fact the 80% of whole time you are exactly using a seeker rockets.

 

p.s. maybe i understand you incorrect (because i can't understand what if "displeased" in this situation. good or bad? =/ )

Edited by nepacaka, 02 August 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Ketchup'Jizah used to be RockNSeek. But switched to EOC for most fights.

 

But, really, I do use EOC Rocketeer more often then Seeker. at least nowadays. I hit level 6 before buying any other weapons for him. When I bought EOC I largely stuck with it. So most of that 20% EOC use is one big chunk.

 

However, not a big fan of Heat Cannon, especially since I stick to long range in a Rocketeer. That's why Ketchup doesn't use it.

[nepacaka]

Here the funny statistics.

i spend one hour and checkup top players from herokuapp. Only facts. i check a 130 players who actually can use rockeeteer and have enough skill to use rocketeer with Heat or EOC.

OmniStone - EOC only (respect)
Dew - EOC
memag - EOC (60% time)
Culex - EOC (60%)
TunsOfFun - EOC
Requiem132 - EOC
Umbre - EOC (30%, 60% seeker)
REDsDEAD - mostly EOC and Heat a little
Kopra - use EOC and Heat (50/50)
legox - EOC (50%)
HighCaliber - EOC only
EpicToy - EOC 60%
RozerMahbub - mostly EOC, Heat a little
Cyberfluorescence - just make me laugh with his Incinirator name :D, he is not a part of statistic.
poopSlinger - 40% EOC
CounterlogicMan - EOC
Heptagon - EOC 20%

balweo - HEAT-cannon 90% (finally, the first player from 130 who actually use Heat, he is in 1%! 1% of players who use HEAT!)

Exeon - EOC
andrzejxx223 - EOC
HubbaBubba9849 - EOC and Heat 50%, and 50% seeker
DM30 - EOC only (and also have a second rocketeer with seeker only)
Rider_Anton - EOC

 

 

All other players who use rocketeer use only Seeker. 60% of them NEVER buy EOC or Heat and make zero shots from thus weapons.

only 22 players who play on rocketeer and use mostly EOC

1 player who use Heat always

all other use seeker all the days

some players don't have rocketeer.

 

it is clearly see how many % use seeker, and how less % use EOC, and only 1% who play with Heat, Lol.

 

 

Something in rocketeer should be changed !

 

my personal statistic:

i have a 2 rocketeers. 100% EOC-rocketeer, and 80% Heat-rockee, and 20% seeker (i use seeker when i play on USA-servers with high ping) i made 42000 EOC shots, and 52000 Heat shots.

Edited by nepacaka, 02 August 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[Neraste]

I think it worths a try. But fewer missiles in a Hellfire shot doesn't make it too much closer to what a Seeker is?

[nepacaka]

and the second reason why Devs should buff HF and nerf Seeker - Bruiser. Just right now Bruiser is the piece of sh!t.

 

now look, what we have in general

1) more viable Heat and EOC rocketeer

2) Bruiser return to his normal state

Edited by nepacaka, 02 August 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[SatelliteJack]

How about just increasing the damage? We already know that not all the missiles hit, so rather than reducing the number of missiles (and consequently the number of shots that have an opportunity to land), just make each one that does lhit do more damage. The current fire rate is already enough to balance it. And even if all the missiles did hit with their extra damage, god forbid, you might actually kill someone with them.

[Hyginos]

Nepacaka I would point out that a lot of the players you mentioned as EOC rocketeer players played the mech wen EOC rocketeer was actually a strong mech.

[Onstrava]

I think it worths a try. But fewer missiles in a Hellfire shot doesn't make it too much closer to what a Seeker is?

Hmm perhaps but would that be such a bad thing though? By lessening the amount of missiles needed while keeping the damage the same would make for higher hit confirms. Currently the HFs are RNG based right now, sometimes 1/6, 4/6, 3/6, etc missiles will hit the target. The majority of the time 1 or more of the missiles hits a obstacle of some kind, like the walls or the ground. Majority of the time, having all 6 the missiles hitting target isn't very common. That's the reason I'm suggesting a change to this to see how it will pan out in the long run. I'm pretty sure the call out to buff HFs will lessen if people got more consistant damage out of the HFs as opposed to what it is currently, that's my opinion of course.

 

EOCs EOCs EOCs

When it comes to Eocs yes, you can try to use them but no, they are not that great over all. Think about it, you're turning the rocketeer into a handcap predator. The predator at least has an alpha strike thanks to its cloaking/thermal vision, how often do you sneak up on someone with the giant rocketeer at ranged or close quarters? Besides that it's waaayyy too easy to counter this combination, get close and it's a gg for the Eoc rocketeer. At a distance it's like lulz this guy is trying to snipe me with an Eoc rocketeer..hold on..let me dodge to the left a little or behind this pillar since I can see a giant blue line of pucks and a loud buzzer saying "HEY. INCOMING. I'M SHOOTING AT YOU!!!" The Eoc rocketeer just isn't what it use to be and even back then it wasn't the greatest thing ever. Heat rocketeer is fun but not very rewarding, since you're turning the rocketeer into a sniper with the hopes that your HF will hit them with all 6 rockets which I already said is rng based. I'm proud to say I've done okay with both Heat rocketeer and Eoc rocketeer so far but my lord is it hard at times, but don't just take my word for it try it out and see for yourselves on both combinations. But seriously I do wonder how well the HFs mechs would do without the loud buzzer sound. (some reason the text got messed up) ;/

Edited by Onstrava, 02 August 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[nepacaka]

Nepacaka I would point out that a lot of the players you mentioned as EOC rocketeer players played the mech wen EOC rocketeer was actually a strong mech.

 

do not forget, that these players are TOPs, and they mostly have insane kill-death ratio when killing some noobs. they actually can play on one legged scout with one weapon and it will be a strong mech in their hands in any case.

 

and actually, some TOP players who play only on Seeker rocketers have a kill/death = 7/1. notice that too, please. despite that many player who play with EOC have 2/1 or even 1/1.

 

i make more viable statistic a little later.

Edited by nepacaka, 02 August 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[Nov8tr]

I like the ideas I've seen here. I'd say make it 3 hellfires just so it looks good. That is half of what we have now. Increase the damage of course. And yes remove the warning sound. Totally unfair. I don't hear it due to my hearing loss. But others do and hide. No sound for a tow, so no sound for HF's either. :D

[System64]

6 hellfires = 111 damage

 

1 Seeker = 50 damage

 

1 TOW rocket = 120 damage (or 150, I think)

 

Yes, hellfires have lock on, but when you lock on someone they get those warnings. Once you learn the basics of dodging, hellfires will be real easy to dodge, you just have to make sure not to dodge too early or too late. Seekers have the benefit of tracking enemies without giving the warning on enemies' HUD, but 50 damage for a rocket is just pathetic to me. I think seekers should do 60 damage per rocket, at least. Also maybe lower seeker fire rate to be identical to the rev-gl fire rate.

 

I'd say that if TOWs currently do 150, buff hellfires to 120 damage or 130 damage (if all the missiles hit). Otherwise if they currently do 120, I guess we might leave hellfires at 111 for now, if that's the case.

[JeffMagnum]

do not forget, that these players are TOPs, and they mostly have insane kill-death ratio when killing some noobs. they actually can play on one legged scout with one weapon and it will be a strong mech in their hands in any case.

 

and actually, some TOP players who play only on Seeker rocketers have a kill/death = 7/1. notice that too, please. despite that many player who play with EOC have 2/1 or even 1/1.

 

i make more viable statistic a little later.

 

EOC used to be overpowered and Hellfires were way stronger due to having a different homing mechanic and doing more damage, so it's not surprising a lot of older players have decent stats with EOC Rocketeer. It's fuzzy bunny now tho and hardly anyone plays it (for good reason)

 

Re: OP, I think the devs should focus on completely reworking HFs instead of incrementally making them stronger in their current form. There's no way to balance them for all levels of play right now, and I'd rather Bruiser and Rocketeer be useless than dominate the low-MMR meta with ezmode spam. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 02 August 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Hek_naw]

if you don't notice, nobody play on EOC and Heat-Rocketeer,

Hey! I play Heat Rocketeer! Your post hurt my feelings.

 

(Though I didn't know seeker did more damage but I kinda suspected it, however I like being able to shoot one charged Heat and then the followup as a first attack, it disables those A-classes that look out for themselves and then flee to repair.)

[Neraste]

 

I think it worths a try. But fewer missiles in a Hellfire shot doesn't make it too much closer to what a Seeker is?

 

Hmm perhaps but would that be such a bad thing though?

 

If the primary and the secondary weapon become too similar, I think it is less interesting from a strict gameplay point of view.

 

Majority of the time, having all 6 the missiles hitting target isn't very common.

 

I agree your opinion, but hitting your target with all of your 6 missiles isn't that uncommon (c'mon!). It depends on the map, but if you manage to curve your shot, things go pretty well.

 

We definitely need a "dev sandbox mode" on Hawken, where you can experiment some live tweaks and tunings...

[Anichkov3]

 Think before proposing changes.

Ask yourself and "Top Players": Why HF considered weak? 

Damage? pfff, Nooo

Speed, that's why. Rockets fly very slowly. Warns of the enemy approaching the sound by which people shy away from slow-flying missiles. Give missile flight speed like "charged hitkanon" without changing their damage and cooldown. And you will see that these weapons would be much more effective.

Why "Top players" feel weak? All elementary. These people are accustomed to TOW. After all, if you missed out TOW. This does not mean that you are not snagged undermining the enemy missile. 

HF does not forgive such mistakes. If you missed HF, then missed completely.

So you look in the wrong direction. It should nerf TOW. Remove from undermining the TOW in the air - That's a great idea. 

 

By the way about the sound warning of approach of missiles. It needs to be changed so that it is always signaled a sound and did not change in the near approaching missiles. And now not only know that the purpose of that in her flying missiles, so still and the sound can be opredellit in what is now a distance missiles.

Edited by Anichkov3, 02 August 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[nepacaka]

 Think before proposing changes.

 

Give missile flight speed like "charged hitkanon"

 

heat cannon have a 400 speed, and actually nobody can't evade charged heat. only babaji can.

 

if you increase HF speed similar to TOW, you should be increase dodge speed from ~25 to 40m/s, and dodge distance. Because C and B (and probably A) can't evade guided missiles with 100 speed.

Also, increasing dodge speed and dodge distance added a "big fuel exploit"

 

you do not think about the problems which may be caused by your suggestions.

 

 

So you look in the wrong direction. It should nerf TOW. Remove from undermining the TOW in the air - That's a great idea.

 

yeah, just like you skill with this weapon...

 

Why "Top players" feel weak? All elementary. These people are accustomed to TOW.

 

no, it's just because early TOW deal 185 damage, and HF deal 300 damage. and it was normal.

Edited by nepacaka, 02 August 2015 - 10:26 PM.

[Anichkov3]

 

no, it's just because early TOW deal 185 damage, and HF deal 300 damage. and it was normal.

You probably had a bad dream with Babaji

 

yeah, just like you skill with this weapon...

yeah, probably without the possibility of undermining the rocket in the air you are not able to play ...

 

The main problem is not the low damage HF, but the fact that from it too easy to dodge. Therefore it is necessary to change the notification sound and speed of missiles. Of course, by increasing the damage we do not refuse.

[nepacaka]

The main problem is not the low damage HF, but the fact that from it too easy to dodge. Therefore it is necessary to change the notification sound and speed of missiles. Of course, by increasing the damage we do not refuse.

 

two word beat all of you arguments. Mech stacking.

[Anichkov3]

 

two word beat all of you arguments. Mech stacking.

 

very detailed in your arguments ... You learned two new words you write and now they are everywhere ...
I propose options. The opinion that the machine will Bruzer death due to an increase in DPS HF questionable. Because normal people dodge the HF easily because of the low-speed flight missiles.
Apparently meaningless to rakoforume anything to discuss.

Edited by Anichkov3, 03 August 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[Onstrava]

 

We definitely need a "dev sandbox mode" on Hawken, where you can experiment some live tweaks and tunings...

This would definitely help in the long run. Just think about it, a mech testing zone where you can adjust the damage/movement/rate of fire or anything on any mech to see if it would improve the mech or make the mech OP or less effective. After you test your findings you can report it to the devs and have them look at your ideas of change and put it into consideration. If all possible you can have other players look at the changes you're suggesting via a up/down vote system after testing it in that zone area. While appling feedback and see what the community would like to see and what they wouldn't want to see. If the scores are too even then you don't change anything, while if the score is vastly great the devs will look at it. If the score is vastly down they will just throw it in the shredding bin so to speak. Either way lets all face it, where all testers here in hopes that the devs will here our pleas for help and adjustments, this just makes it where there is a specific place for it to be tested.

Edited by Onstrava, 03 August 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Onstrava]

Alright, u have my vote. Onstrava and his suggestion for president!

 

Nerfing seeker is not good. Nefring any aspect of rocketeer is nononononono. They are poor guys already. Let them be.

[nepacaka]

Because normal people dodge the HF easily because of the low-speed flight missiles.

 

but you can't dodge it with you rocketeer. lol. show me this people who can do it easy on C-cls every time :D

most of time players use cover. especially on C-class.

 

We definitely need a "dev sandbox mode" on Hawken

 

it is a totally kill all interest to buy a new mech. you can play on all mechs, check on and buy, and you no need to do something else. you no need buy something to experiment with this.

 

you know about pirate WoW servers, where you have 80lvl character from start, and have the last armor set? it is actually not interest to play, because you no need to do something, you already have all...

 

For example, if you do not waste your efforts on the development account:
1) if someone will give you an account with all of the mechs, and someone steal it. You're upset.
2) if someone steal account with all your mechs, which you ranked to lvl 6 by yourself, and buy items/internals for it, you are Very upset. because you put your own time and effort into this account.

 

it probably can be only a testers feature. (if we have testers someday :D)

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[crockrocket]

EOC used to be overpowered and Hellfires were way stronger due to having a different homing mechanic and doing more damage, so it's not surprising a lot of older players have decent stats with EOC Rocketeer. It's fuzzy bunny now tho and hardly anyone plays it (for good reason)

 

Re: OP, I think the devs should focus on completely reworking HFs instead of incrementally making them stronger in their current form. There's no way to balance them for all levels of play right now, and I'd rather Bruiser and Rocketeer be useless than dominate the low-MMR meta with ezmode spam. 

 

That honestly just reinforces the point Nepa was making. It was a little bit of a confusing way for him to say it, but he was saying that these are the ONLY players with significant use of Heat or EOC, and that is an indicator of Seeker being overpowered

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 03 August 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[nepacaka]

That honestly just reinforces the point Nepa was making. It was a little bit of a confusing way for him to say it, but he was saying that these are the ONLY players with significant use of Heat or EOC, and that is an indicator of Seeker being overpowered

 

if you check many other players, with 1800, 1900, mmr. you can notice that many of them who use Heat or EOC have a 1 or <1 kill/death. but the same players have a 1.5-2 kill/death ratio on scout or assault.

 

many people only try this weapon once, i.e. they have 50k shots from seeker and 100 from Heat. it's just that they buy it. trying. and forgot about this weapon. mostly, seeker statistic have a higher k/d, and heat/EOC almost all have a <1 k/d for average players.

 

 

Hey! I play Heat Rocketeer! Your post hurt my feelings.

 

yep! you play with it. But how many Berserks you kill? :D

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

That honestly just reinforces the point Nepa was making. It was a little bit of a confusing way for him to say it, but he was saying that these are the ONLY players with significant use of Heat or EOC, and that is an indicator of Seeker being overpowered

 

I guess I'm just saying that all their stats are irrelevant since the meta was different then and that's when most of their kills are from. I'm not disagreeing with his conclusion, though I think Seeker is only good relative to the other primary choices and isn't that effective overall. I personally prefer Heat but it's not like it matters since no one tryhards in Rocketeer to begin with

[StubbornPuppet]

I think we need about 6 more topics about the same thing.

[Onstrava]

I think we need about 6 more topics about the same thing.

I TOTALLY AGREE. Starting today I want to see 6 topics each day about the rocketeer. Maybe then the devs will look at this and some classes that need adjustment and well adjust them. Sir you start the first one and then someone else starts after that. K Thanks! I'm counting on you.

[nepacaka]

Following the latest updates, Devs a little by little gathered a team, though not completely. it is quite possible that they will make changes to the balance or change it completely. just do not want to hurry up and make a mistake.

who khows?

 

6 more topics

 

it's just an indication that something is wrong.
do you remember Scout and Flak cannon story? or EOC nerf? 6 rocketeers on @Bunker? i have a many examples for you when people starting post the same topics. and this is actually not a first topic about rocketeer...

Edited by nepacaka, 06 August 2015 - 11:22 AM.