55 replies to this topic

[nepacaka]

Ladies and Gentlemens.

I suggest (the umpteenth time…) rebalance a Rocketeer (and Bruiser) to make it more viable on battlefield and stronger agains good players (and not make it OP).

 

I know I’m a bad english-writer, but trying to understand what I tell :D, if you want help, you can send me mistakes in text, or writing about it in spoiler below, and I correct my topic.

 

 

Some statistics again:

 

I checkup a 300 top player from herokuapp. All of these have 2100+ mmr. Some % of players are smurfs but...

Okay, lets go.

 

1) 189 players from 300 have a Rocketeer (actually almost all a real player have a rocketeer, i.e.  ~85%, only smurfs with 2-4 mech on accounts don’t have it)

 

2) only 98 have a rocketeer with many Kills, and playtime more than 10 hours. i.e. these guys play on it very often or sometimes. (i.e. 4-5 rank rocketeers with 90 kills and 3-6 hrs of play not included)

 

3) from 98 rocketeers

- 33 players use with EOC

- 4 players use  with Heat (and one of them is a smurf with only rockeeteer on account and 15 hrs of play)

- 61 players use Seeker

It’s clearly to see percentage. 61% - seeker, 33% - EOC, 4% - Heat, 2% - babaji.

 

 

Statistic by weapons, from players who use rocketeer.

 

Seeker:

K/D ratio <1 – 7 players (some of these players bad with rockee, but have a good k/d on scout, assault etc.)

K/D ratio >=1 but <2 – 39 players

K/D ratio >=2 but <4 – 31 players

K/D ratio >=4 – 7 players (half of these people have a good k/d only on rocketeer, all other mech in their hangar have a worse or <1 k/d)

(Many of these players who play 20-50 hrs on rocketeer even don’t buy a EOC or Heat. i.e. These noobs did not even try something new! :C )

 

EOC:

K/D ratio <1 – 3 players

K/D ratio >=1 but <2 – 11 players

K/D ratio >=2 but <4 – 11 players

K/D ratio >=4 – 4 players (half of these players have a insane k/d with other mech like a scout. Infiltrator, gren, etc., one of these is 100% smurf)

 

Heat:

K/D ratio <1 – 0 players

K/D ratio >=1 but <2 – 2 players

K/D ratio >=2 but <4 – 1 players

K/D ratio >=4 – 1 players (is a smurf with only one rocketeer on account and 15 hrs of play… or maybe just a super-heat-rocketeer fun, I mean, he make 90% of kill by killing 1400mmr noobs)

 

All players with Heat also have a >1 k/d on all other mechs. Yes, Heat Statistics is not a very representative due only several players play with it, but it clearly demonstrates that nobody uses Heat in right mind, only idiotes, like me.

 

 

 

You may see that mostly players with EOC have a >2 kill/death ratio. But these guys actually is a very skilled player with any mechs.

 

I also want a see statistic with less mmr players, but is hard to collect manually. If I could sort the database by using a SQL query, and compared different levels of MMR, it certainly would have been more significant. But it is not…

 

 

So, why peoples prefer a Seeker?

Because, it is easy to use. Rocketeer with EOC or Heat have a some nice Advantages (1 or 2 =/), but actually have a tonnes of drawbacks. What does it mean?

This means that in order to show the same result (effectiveness) as we have on the Seeker-Roketeer, when you playing with the EOC or Heat you should to exert a Herculean effort!

 

 

Now I tell you why Seeker is actually very good weapon. Because it is "invisible". Seeker have enough fire rate to attack enemy with 3 rockets before he realize that “something wrong”.

 

How it working?

If enemy don’t see you, you can shoot in enemy a three seeker rockets. When first rocket hit the enemy, they starting realize that he takes damage and determine from which side he is being fired. Due the seeker rockets flying a very fast (140m/s, 40% faster than TOW rocket, and in 400% faster than HF), the enemy usually takes the second and the third rocket before he can find a cover. It is guarantees you a deal 150 damage to enemy. Most of time Seeker Rocketeer killing runaway people and deal a lot of damage by Seeker rockets. And not from HF. It is sad true.

 

Why HF is not working good?

HF missiles declared in Hawken as a "long-range weapon". But in fact, they never can hit a target which is stand far away. If you trying to shoot in enemy on 200m, he is just heared “missiles warning” and starting boost to any nearest cover. It’s happen in 90% of times. Hit someone from TOW on 200m easier than shoot from HF, because enemy don’t know about TOW-rockets. He stand or go far away and than “BAM!”. He is surprisingly gets a 125 damage out of nowhere

 

 

Ok, next point. Facts, we actually know about Rocketeer.

 

1) It is sux in 1vs1 due the HF

2) HF is actually weaker than other Secondaries. It is slow, and have a cheaper DPS.

3) It is very hard to play with EOC or Heat, due the HF don’t have enough damage in cqc. And EOC and Heat too slow to kill someone with sustain. For example, if berserk attack you, and you miss 2 times from uncharged heat, he can kill you faster. And you can’t run away from him.

3) Bruiser is Also sux, because babaji don’t love him.

 

 

Ok. Now, Time to look on Rocketeer DPS and stats.

 

Rocketeer with Seeker – 71+34 = 105 DPS

Rocketeer with EOC – 52+34 = 86 DPS (Just lol, because only SAARE have a 80 :P)

Rocketeer with Heat – uncharged - 79+34=113 DPS, charged - 39+34=73 DPS

Flak Brawler DPS for examle (because it is a Burst mech too) – 88+55=143

Bruiser DPS – 155 Vulcan, 138 SMC, 133 AR.

 

Now we have a Dilemma. how Buff a rocketeer, and not broken other mech? And this is my suggestion how to change it, and they I explain why we can’t other ways to do it. And this changes may be only like a “Complex”.

1) Increase HF DPS to 40 (+6)

2) Decrease Seeker DPS to (-6), I suggest decrease a firerate and don’t change a Damage

3) Decrease Vulcan, AR, and SMC dps to (-5)

4) Delete "missiles warning" sound from HF

This also is automatically be a slightly nerf to Some of sustained mechs, like Assault, Berserk, Gren, Vanguard. And a slightly buff to all other Burst mech. EOC/Heat Roketeer get a slightly buff, bruiser almost unchanged.

Should i remember you that sustain mechs mostly have a perfect kill/death ratio with current meta? If compared with other mechs.

 

 

 

Why we can’t change rocketeer in other way?

 

If we trying to buff other aspects:

1) Heat – we can’t buff Heat, because Infil and Scout turned into OP

2) EOC – we can’t buff EOC, because Raider and Infil turned into OP

3) We can’t buff a rocketeer HP, because “Rocketeer stacking”

4) We can’t buff a Bruiser ability, because “Bruiser stacking” (I think you all remember how it was on ascension)

5) We can’t change HF missiles flying speed, due the slow dodge of B- and C-class, or they can’t dodging from this.

6) And we can’t just add a damage to HF to buff Rocketeer, because Bruiser.

 

So, as you can see, the only way to a slightly improve a Rocketeer and not made him OP – is a complex of measures and rebalancing. But I don’t see the other way. If you a little thinking about it in "Global point of view" (and not only buff or nerf Rocketeer), you will come to a similar inference.

 

 

And it is actually would be good, if Reloaded collect some statistic about all mechs. But maybe they have statistic in numbers, i don't know...

 

 

 

 

[nepacaka]

sorry for babaji english. I tried to make it as clear as it possible.

[Elite_is_salty]

I really don't understand how people dare to say rocketeers need buffs.

[nepacaka]

I really don't understand how people dare to say rocketeers need buffs.

 

seeker rocketeer not changed, only EOC/Heat rocketeer and Bruiser gain a slightly buff. You not read =/

 

most of people probably don't understand it because they never play on Heat-Rocketeer. They don't know nothing about it and crying about "how rocketeer is OP" and "dumbfire", despite that fact that is a totally sh!t in real fight with the same skill opponents.

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[Anichkov3]

 

NERF Vulcan, AR, and SMC dps to (-5)

+1

 

We can’t change HF missiles flying speed, due the slow dodge of B- and C-class, or they can’t dodging from this.

Remind me what the speed of the HF if you believe the table https://docs.google....1#gid=416460446

 ?

It can not be, do 3 times less than the TOW? Is that really true? Probably not, because the Scout enabled abilities is able to escape from the HF ...  

Tell me how difficult it is to dodge the EOC? Airspeed mines EOC twice higher than the TOW. And you're whining like beaten that children will not be able to dodge ....

 

Maybe you better remember how HF became so now. Remember earlier HF had 40 DPS. A TOW missiles had 47 DPS. And then what happened? Make a "balance": HF made 34 DPS; TOW made 55.5 DPS.

 

The question is, so what you need to nerf?

Edited by Anichkov3, 03 August 2015 - 04:27 AM.

[Siamenis]

What about some changes that reward dumb-firing HFs? Like bigger AOE, if not for a damage buff... Keep the spread of missiles when dumb-firing but slightly increase their AOE. I'm talking about slight changes here, mind you. This would make the thing more viable in cqc situations and also overall, I think.

[Panzermanathod]

What about some changes that reward dumb-firing HFs?

 

That's like saying for a game with a shotgun, reward the use of using a shotgun as a long distance weapon.

[Siamenis]

That's like saying for a game with a shotgun, reward the use of using a shotgun as a long distance weapon.

Yes, but in those games you can change the weapon to suit the situation in case it becomes a long range endeavor... Here you cannot, and considering this games' neck-breaking speed, Rocketeers quickly become overrun, making them completely useless.

Edited by Siamenis, 03 August 2015 - 04:23 AM.

[n3onfx]

For those saying that it's fine for a rocketeer to lose if rushed at because it's a long range mech, SS and reaper still have a chance to kill you up close. Don't get me wrong they are at a clear disadvantage but a shield and some nice dancing can turn the fight.

A rocketeer on the other hand is fuzzy bunnyed if you engage him up close, often even taking an emp to the face leaves you enough time to recover from it and kill them. A shield will hamper them more than help them. A tech has a better chance of killing you at mi-close ranges with their buggy hitbox on laggy servers than a rocketeer that's just a fat target. Rocketeer should be at a disadvantage up close, but it should not be completely helpless.

And yes YES seeker is by far more annoying and dangerous than hellfires.

[Kopra]

When you take into account projectile speeds, you don't take into account that both TOW and Hellfire have acceleration. TOW is not just 100 m/s, that is only its initial speed, it accelerates quickly to a much faster speed so it becomes much more viable at even longer ranges.
Same with Hellfires, do you really think it moves at boost speeds the whole time?

[Anichkov3]

 

 

When you take into account projectile speeds, you don't take into account that both TOW and Hellfire have acceleration. TOW is not just 100 m/s, that is only its initial speed, it accelerates quickly to a much faster speed so it becomes much more viable at even longer ranges.
Same with Hellfires, do you really think it moves at boost speeds the whole time?

 

Very arguments ... Please digits comrades.

I'm tired of the lessons of scholasticism in the forum.

If you talk on the essence argues. And that "spherical horse in a vacuum" - it is not serious gentlemen.

Some gentlemen here like to give a "statistics" to help yourself, but why are you - great "top players" do not say directly. Why do not you think Rocketeer not competitive? In detail, point by point. Or maybe just because of personal preference? "Oh, I do not like to play it, because I like to play the Brawlers / Reapers / Assault ..." or "Oh, I'm dying for it more often than in the Raider"

Edited by Anichkov3, 03 August 2015 - 07:16 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Yes, but in those games you can change the weapon to suit the situation in case it becomes a long range endeavor... Here you cannot, and considering this games' neck-breaking speed, Rocketeers quickly become overrun, making them completely useless.

 You could change weapons between deaths, so it's not a big difference.

[Meraple]

For those saying that it's fine for a rocketeer to lose if rushed at because it's a long range mech

It's fine for a Rocketeer to lose anything because aiming2hard.

[n3onfx]

It's fine for a Rocketeer to lose anything because aiming2hard.

 

#justiceforRocketeers

 

I hate facing 3 of them on Bunker just because it's so obnoxious to have to deal with the constant bidibidibidi anytime you poke your nose out of somewhere. Also hellfires are easy to dodge but when 2 salvos are homing on you in the middle of every fight against someone else it's frustrating. But honestly, it's a really bad mech. The maps are more to blame than the mech itself, when a mech as bad as the Rocketeer becomes dangerous on a map you know the map is really badly designed.

[Siamenis]

 You could change weapons between deaths, so it's not a big difference.

The point is, though, in that you shouldn't have to die to do that. Like dying means nothing in this game...

[nepacaka]

The question is, so what you need to nerf?

I'm not talking about nerf.

[Onstrava]

So I have to say this since nobody ever seems to bring this up when it comes to buffs and nerfs. For some reason everybody thinks that these weapons are globel in stats. You all do now that the devs can buff a specific mech if they want to? Example, they could buff the HFs on the rocketeer and keep the bruisers HFs where they are currently. Or they could nerf a specific mechs vulcans and have the vulcans on the other mechs stay the same. I just had to say that because people keep thinking that if they nerf or buff one type of weapon, that it's going to go on the other weapons with the same name. Just something to think about.

[n3onfx]

Actually from what I remember due to the way the game is built and how weapons are stored on the database they can't. Same-name weapons are tied in stats across all mechs which is why the assault g2 and T32 on the raider g2 are actually different weapons. Someone will have to confirm it but I'm sure I read it here a while back already.

Edited by neon, 03 August 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[nepacaka]

And yes YES seeker is by far more annoying and dangerous than hellfires.

hell yeah, this guy known what i'm talking about.

Welcome to "true rocketeer club"

 

 

 

I just had to say that because people keep thinking that if they nerf or buff one type of weapon, that it's going to go on the other weapons with the same name.

 

and answer is

due to the way the game is build and how weapons are stored on the database they can't.

 

it have the same name in code, if you change bruiser HF you automatically change a Rocketeer. This is why it should be a complex of changes.

 

 

Why do not you think Rocketeer not competitive? In detail, point by point.

 

when you buy Heat-cannon on you rocketeer, and trying to play with this... you change your opinion. or you don't want buff for rocketeer?

Some gentlemen here like to give a "statistics" to help yourself

 

if you not belive me you can check everything by yourself. i actually look more than 300 person, just added only 300 because it not very fast process and require alot of time. numbers not lie, i didn't do it just for "help myself".

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Anichkov3]

neon says correctly. Onstrava, you probably do not know how to construct a database of weapons. The weapon is not just a name. Weapons of the same name is the same weapon for all robots using this weapon.

Yes, developers can convert the entire database of weapons. And then you can be very finely balanced mechs. But we can not give orders to the developers - they do.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about nerf.

Ie you are not suggested:

 

3) Decrease Vulcan, AR, and SMC dps to (-5)

that affect the following mechs: CR-T Recruit; Infiltrator; Berserker; Assault; Bruiser; Vanguard; Grenadier

[nepacaka]

that affect the following mechs: CR-T Recruit; Infiltrator; Berserker; Assault; Bruiser; Vanguard; Grenadier

 

oh, you about this...

sustained mechs are actually have a very perfect statistic (kill/death) by every players. it is working more good than other mechs in game. so it is a not bad decision, i think. and nerf a very very slightly. like a scalpel.

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[Anichkov3]

Actually I wrote the above, I support this rapid-nerf laser weapons.

Just trying to align Bruiser and Assault performance you will be disappointed. Without an increase in the speed with or without changing the way tracking HF - HF weapons will always lose TOW. 

Because you missed HF will not cause damage to the enemy. But missed s You may be able to undermine the TOW missile strike close and almost half of the "additional" damage, which was not to be.

Edited by Anichkov3, 03 August 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[Onstrava]

That's very interesting, welp I guess where all screwed in the long run then. :T Time to name the weapons 1-5 to keep the mechs balanced. "HEY SOMEBODY CHANGE VULCAN #1!!", "got it boss, how about vulcan #2-5"? "Oh those ones are all balanced". "Right". I can only imagine how that would pan out.

Edited by Onstrava, 03 August 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[nepacaka]

Just trying to align Bruiser and Assault performance you will be disappointed. Without an increase in the speed with or without changing the way tracking HF - HF weapons will always lose TOW.

 

it's working not bad in cqc without lock on, when you not hear "bep-bep".

if you stand far (cuz rocketeer a long-range mech) and don't hear "bep-bep" you probably never can't evade HF guided missiles. yes, rocketeer still be worse in cqc than Assault or Brawler, but it is a Long-Range Mech, i.e. it should not be OP on any distance, for example, Brawler with flak can't deal damage at all.

But rocketeer should deal damage from long-range. I just suggest buff it. Buff HF, and EOC/Heat alternative build, which less people play right now (especially with Heat, which is nobody play with this weapon because it too weak and too hard)

 

Also, some secondary buff for bruiser, which is actually nerfed so much since Ascension.

[nepacaka]

That's very interesting, welp I guess where all screwed in the long run then. :T Time to name the weapons 1-5 to keep the mechs balanced. "HEY SOMEBODY CHANGE VULCAN #1!!", "got it boss, how about vulcan #2-5"? "Oh those ones are all balanced". "Right". I can only imagine how that would pan out.

 

it is not bad idea, but i think it is a little confusing. it will be a little strange when 2 the same weapons deal different damage. but yes, it is more easy to balance i think.

 

but i preffer current conception, we should strive to find a golden middle!

[nepacaka]

HF weapons will always lose TOW.

 

every secondary in hawken have a features, i.e. TOW have an air-mid, HF have an guiding missiles. Korsair have a two mode, etc.
also, you can shoot HF even you stay behind the cover, don't forget about this feature.

 

Just realize how cool it can working if enemy don't hear "bep-bep". he will be a surprising by rockets in his face which flew out of the corner!

you are did not even think about this ability ... am i right?

 

thinking about it more global, and you find how this changes effects on other aspects of the game.

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[Anichkov3]

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Edited by Anichkov3, 03 August 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[nepacaka]

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Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[Anichkov3]

 

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?????? ??, ?? ??? ????? ???????... ???????? ??? ????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ???. ? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ? ??? ? ???. ??? ??????? ?? ?? "????????? ?????" ?????, ? ?? ????????? ??????? ???????????. ?????? ??????? ???????????????? ????? ??? ? ?? ???? 25%, ? ?????? 45%!!! ??????? ???????????????? ?? 30% ?? ???????????? ? ??? ??? ?? "??????????", ?????? ????? 20 ? ??? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????? - ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????, ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????. 

 ? ???????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ???????????????? ?? ????? ????? ???????????????? ???, ? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????. ? ??? ???? ?? ????????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??????? ???? ? ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????????.... ???????? ???????? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ? ???????? 5 ????? ? ?????? ?? ???????? ?????????? ??? ??? ?????? ????????...

 

?????????, ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ???? ? ????, ???????? ?? ????, ? ?????????? ? ???? ?????? ?? ????, ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ????????. ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ? ??????? ???? ??

?? ???? ?????????? ??????? ????? ?????, ??? ? ??? ? ???? ????????????? ?? ???, ? ?? ?? "??? ?????" ??????? ??????? ??? ??? ? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? 100% ????????? ????????? - ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????????. + ?? ??????? ??? ???????????? ?????????? ? ?????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??????, ??? ????????????? ???????????...

[nepacaka]

Spoiler

???????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ? ????? ??? ? ???????.

 

???????? ?????. ? ????.

 

?????? ???? ?? ????????? ? ??????? ????? ????????? ??????????

 

?????? ???????? ??????????? ?????? ???? ???. ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???????. ??? ?? ????? ???????? ??????????? ??????, ? ???? ?????? ???? ???????. ?????? ??? ??????????? ?? ???????????, ???????? ???? ?? ????.

 

???????? ???? ??????????? ????, ???? ??????, ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????????

 

? ? ? ???? ?? ???????. ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ? ??????? ???, ? ?????????? ?? ??????? ????????? ? ?? ????. ????? ??????? ????? ????????. ??????? ???? - ????? ?? ????????. ??? ??? ?? ?????????? ?? ??????? ?????????, ??? ? ?????????. ? ??? ????? ?? ? ?????? ??????, ??????? ???????? ??????? ? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???????, ??? ????????? ????, ??? ?????. ????? ??? ??????, ???? ????????????. ??? ?????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? ????????, ???????? 130 ?????? ? ??!

 

???????? ??? ????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ???.

 

? ???????????????? ? ???? ???? ? ???? ????. ??? ? ??? ??? ??????????.

 

?? ????? ????? ?? ???????, ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????.

 

?????? ?? ?????, ???? ??????? ??? ?????.

 

? ??? ???? ?? ????????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??????? ???? ? ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????????.... ???????? ???????? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ? ???????? 5 ????? ? ??????

 

?? ??????. ?? +5 ?????, ? +5 ???. ??????? ???????.

?? ??????. ?? ?? ?????????, ??? ?? ????????? ????????? ?????? ? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????. ????? ?? ????????, ??? ?? ?????????. ??? ???????? ? ?????? ???????. ???????? ???????? ? ????? ?????, ?? ? ????????? ????. ???? ?? ??? ???, ? ? ?????? ?? ???????. ? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ?? ???/??? ????????, ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????????.

 

?? ???? ?????????? ??????? ????? ?????, ??? ? ??? ? ???? ????????????? ?? ???.... ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????????

 

?? ????, ? ???? ???-?? ??? ? ???? ??????? ??? ?????, ? ??? ?????????. ? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ?????? ????, ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???, ? ?????? ??????, ? ??????? ??? ???????? ????? ?????. ? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ??????? ????????, ???????? ?????? ????????????? ????? ??????, ? ??? ??? ????? ????? 250-300 ?/?, ??? ????? ????? ????????? ?????? ??? (??? ??? ? ???????????? ?????????, ? ????????? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ????????). ?????? ?? ??????????? ?? 600 ?/?, ??? ????? ?????? ???. ??? ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ?? ????????. ?? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ????????.

 

?? ???? ?? ?????, ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ???????? 34 ?/?? ?? ???? ? ?????, ??? ????? 50 ?/? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ???, ??? ? ???????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ???????. ??? ?? ???? ????????? ??? ???????, ??? ?? ??????? 31 ?/? ????.

 

?? ??????? ??? ???????????? ?????????? ? ?????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??????, ??? ????????????? ???????????...

 

?????? ??? ?? ???????????. ???? ???????? ?????????.

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Anichkov3]

something does not add up....

??? ??? ?? ?????????... ??? ? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????? ????, ?? ?? ... 15% ??????? ??? ???????? ???????????.

??? ????????... ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ?? ? ????

?????? ?? ???????, ??????? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ????????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????. ?? ?? ????????????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????????.

? ???? ????? ???????????, ?? ????? ????????? ???? ? ??????? ? ???????? ??? ??????? ???? ????????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ??????. ? ????? ??? ????? ???????????? ? ?????? 

[nepacaka]

Spoiler

??? ??? ?? ?????????... ??? ? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????? ????, ?? ??

 

? ???-??????? ???????... "?????-??????" ????? ??????? ???-??????? 275 ????? ???????????? + EOC ?? 300, ????? ? ???????? ???? 750 ??? ??? ????????? ??? 185 ????? ?? ???. ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ? ?????????. ?? ????? ? ??? ???????, ?? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????????? ?? ?????. ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??????????, ? ? ?? ????. ? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??-?? ???-??. ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ?? ?? ?? ? ????????.?? ?????-?????? ??...??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????????. ???????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ? ???? ???? ??????. ? ? ?????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????, ??????????, ????? - ??? ?????? ???? ?????-???????? ??????? ??? ?? ????. ??????? ??????? ?? ?????????? ??-?? ????????, ??? ? ???? ??? ??? 200 ???????? ? ????????, ?? ???????? ?????.

 

?????? ?? ???????, ??????? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ????????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????.

 

?? ?????????. ? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??????, ????? ??????? ????? ???????. ???????????? ?????? ???? ??????. ????? ? ??????? ?? ???????? ???????????.

 

?? ????? ????????? ???? ? ??????? ? ???????? ??? ??????? ???? ????????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ??????. ? ????? ??? ????? ???????????? ? ?????? 

 

?? ?????. ????? ? ???? ???? ???? ??????????. ? ???? ?? ????????? ????????? ???????? ????. ????????? ???????.

 

??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ?? ? ????

 

???? ?? ????????, ? ?????? ? ???? ?? ???. ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???-??? ????????. ?? ? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???????, ????? ??????, ??? ???????????, ? ??? - ?????? ???????.

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[MomOw]

My ideas for them :

 

https://community.pl...t-salty-changes

 

 

- Rocketeer (easy to use first weapon) :

SA-Hawkins, Heat cannon, Seeker

- Ability:

remove turret mode, make its special ability lock up to 4 targets, shooting a single (new) hellfire to each target.

each target being locked in 0.6s and reduce hellfire rof to 0.6 for single missile.

 

- Bruiser (mid-ranged weaponry, shotgun for shorter range):

AR, Reflak-35, AM-SAR

- Ability :

change its ability to last 2.4s (2 dodges)

 

- Hellfire (gameplay change, more efficient for CCQ, more damages) :

make it shot 2 dumb missiles (0.15s between each) with a speed of 140 that deals each 52.5 damages on hit

make those missiles split into 3 smaller ones after 0.3s, the small missiles being the actual hellfire with slightly increased turnrate

reduce cooldown to 2.75s

- remove lock-on and target detection of invisible Mechs

 

- AM-SAR (emphasis on semi-auto repeater) :

increase rof to 5, reduce damages to 21, increase heat to 9

 

- Reflak-35 (change for a mid-range shotgun) :

reduce spread to 5.5, increase falloff end to 200, increase minimum damages to 5 per pellet, remove the bounce stuff (as it is a useless CPU computation)

 

- HEAT (ease learning, slight buff) :

spead of 300 for both charged and uncharged mode

reduce extra reload time to 1s

 

Edited by MomOw, 03 August 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[nepacaka]

make it shot 2 dumb missiles (0.15s between each) with a speed of 140 that deals each 52.5 damages on hit

make those missiles split into 3 smaller ones after 0.3s, the small missiles being the actual hellfire with slightly increased turnrate

 

i believe, it is how HF was planned and should working (like a cluster rockets), but maybe ADH just have a problem with coding =)

 

- remove lock-on and target detection of invisible Mechs

 

mechs are not invisible!

 

my method to change some number it is not required additionl time to programming and based only on numbers. it is very easy to implement. for implement your suggestion devs need spend a lot of time and reworking some function in engine.

 

And i actually don't want change a mech weapon, i like EOC rockee and Heat, i don't want see it with automatic weapon. But i very agree about ability, it may help. but it should not be another ability which just deal a damage (like a stupid incinerator). No one mech shouldn't have a "damage ability"

 

- Reflak-35 (change for a mid-range shotgun) :

reduce spread to 5.5, increase falloff end to 200, increase minimum damages to 5 per pellet, remove the bounce stuff (as it is a useless CPU computation)

 

this is nice for new shotgun!

Edited by nepacaka, 03 August 2015 - 09:33 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

A couple of thoughts:

 

People use Seekers more than EOC and Heat Cannon because Seekers are a better compliment to the Rocketeer and Hellfires than EOC or Heat.  I love the Heat cannon on an Infiltrator... and I love the EOC on the Pred... but they just don't work well on a Rocketeer because it isn't sneaky or maneuverable enough to take advantage of their qualities.  

 

A buff to 'dumb-fired' Hellfires could be nothing more than giving them some reasonable splash damage.  They barely have any (it's a super small zone) and, since they still spread out quite a bit, enemies hit by a very well aimed and timed dumb-fire Hellfire volley only take the small splash damage from one or two of the missiles.

 

The other detriment to the Rocketeer is that it has no special ability.  "No", I do not count the turret mode as a special - it's useless and a practical suicide move.  Give it an actual special - like maybe a moment where it can lock on to multiple targets or where it can lob a big volley of Hellfire rockets by painting a spot on the ground... then launching them up in the air and have them come raining down.

[nepacaka]

and I love the EOC on the Pred... but they just don't work well on a Rocketeer because it isn't sneaky or maneuverable enough to take advantage of their qualities.

 

1) for example, if we delete a "warning sound" from HF, you probably never hear a walking rocketeer with EOC, until rocketeer attacks you from the flank. and you understand that only after you recieved a EOC+HF combo. it is required some more skill for rocketeer opponents. they should check radar and remember where rocketeer stand, because they can evade rocketeer attack (also included attack from long Range) if you don't look at him.

 

how about this? Without changing any damage.

 

You may see this effect in game even right now. try stand far from enemy which don't look at you and fight with one of your teammate (distracted). Then start shoot in him from Seeker, but not use lock-on! The enemy will start to take damage from Seeker, and perhaps not even understand what going on (or what killed him) while not receive some rockets. this gain rocketeer an advantage if you don't look at him, or not control him. it is working good. and it should be working good, because rocketeer a long-range mech!

 

Than try do the same things when enemy stand far and use lock-on. Enemy immediately start moving to cover even if he don't look at you and don't know where you are. nice place to check this, bridge on Wreckage and AA point

 

 

it is also improver rocketeer corner-fight abilities. and make it stronger in 1vs1 if you use it correct. just realize, you use lock-on and enemy don't know about it (because don't hear), than you dodge behind corner, turn head and shoot HF missiles. Missiles bend around the corner and fly straight into the enemy face. + Heat cannon. i.e. you shoot from Heat, dodge behind cover and shoot guided missiles. it is a nice combo and gain rocketeer a chance to beat you if you trying catch him.

 

 

 

2) some other idea, increase rocketeer backward flying speed a little. (right now forward flying speed is higher than backwards)

while this working on Berserk (because you fly to enemy), it is not working for rocketeer which actually should flying back from enemy and keep distance.

Edited by nepacaka, 04 August 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[n3onfx]

Another possible line of approach is to keep the bipping sound but not for lock on. Bipping could trigger after one second of flight for example (they are homing rockets after all). Meaning from far away the target can still evade if they are fast enough (still needs to know where they are coming from). And up close hellfires would hit before bipping triggers, allowing some sneaking.

That way it boosts mid-close range positioning for the hellfire user that plays smartly but still allows evasive manoeuvres at range for reactive players. Coupled with a buff to hellfire dumbfire (so much fire!) it could work.

Edited by neon, 04 August 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[nepacaka]

Bipping could trigger after one second of flight for example

 

for example, if you are scout you still can boost behind wall. if enemy shoot from 150m. maybe brawler can't (but i think he easile can do thi too). just because you still know that you are attacked. and it is still warning.

Edited by nepacaka, 04 August 2015 - 10:51 PM.

[Anichkov3]

I understood. neon, meaningless to him to offer an option when there is a sound of the HF (I suggested), he wants to remove the audio completely (if you still do not understand). nepacaka want to completely remove the sound from the HF and make it a "big seeker" who can shoot from behind a corner.

He always scolds Seeker but it wants to make HF likeness "Seeker."

 

Think of that blamed Seeker. His blamed for what he discreetly with autoguider flies to the enemy. nepacaka wants to do the same with HF. That's all.

[StubbornPuppet]

Nepa, you gave me some great thoughts on helping the Rocketeer and Bruiser be more competitive without making it OP:

 

1. Make the Hellfire Lock-on warning only sound once the player has actually fired them.  So, a player could lock on, but their target wouldn't know until you actually fire.  :D

 

2. A faster backwards walking and flying speed.  YES.  The whole strategy behind staying alive in a Rocketeer (and to a lesser extent in the Bruiser) is being able to attack while retreating.