253 replies to this topic

[_incitatus]

There haven't been any new players in Hawken. They are the same old players, just hiding behind new smurfs.

That is just not true at all.

[Nept]

Nept said it best, Xacius "SHOT PAST" 3k. If things were diminishing, that could of never happened. Sorry man. Only one of these things can be true, they are mutually exclusive.

 

Nept's going to help you say it a bit better, and point out that you're looking for "could never have happened".  Also, when Hyginos and devo mention diminishing returns, they're referencing the effects of Hawken's diminished population.  Because there aren't many high-MMR players remaining (and because there haven't been for some time), the practical effect on MMR is diminishing returns.  That's also the reason that Xacius' MMR increased during TPG games: he was playing for Hawken's top team, in our most point-friendly position, and against players with relatively similar MMRs.

 

Contrary to your claims, neither devo nor Hyginos are stating that diminishing returns are built into Hawken's MMR equation - except insofar as the unavailability of high-MMR players makes those diminishing returns a practical truth.  Devotion spent almost an entire post explaining that to you.

[crockrocket]

There haven't been any new players in Hawken. They are the same old players, just hiding behind new smurfs.

 

That is completely and utterly false. Nearly the entire roster of TDM has been playing Hawken for less than a year, for example.

[devotion]

They are NOT diminishing. Diminishing means that as you approach a limit, the amount of gain you get is less and less. That doesn't happen in the MMR equation at all. A 1500 player can gain as much MMR per match as a 2500 MMR in one single match. It is just completely dependent on the average MMR of the lobby at that time and nothing else.

Nept said it best, Xacius "SHOT PAST" 3k. If things were diminishing, that could of never happened. Sorry man. Only one of these things can be true, they are mutually exclusive.

if xacius was 3k mmr and the next 11 best players were 3k mmr and he beat them until he was 3.5k mmr, would he continue gaining mmr from them at the same rate as he moved toward 4k, or would his growth diminish?

 

the limit here is the best available competition, which both xacius and hestoned are well accustomed to. the diminished returns come from the fact that their growth outpaces that of their available peers.

 

shooting past something is a relative term. i can smurf to 2500 in under 24 hours, and say that i "shot past" 1200 mmr. pushing from 2.9x to 3k+ in over a week or even a month is "shooting past" it, when you consider that it was an accomplishment with no prior precedence.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

SS, I ignore your posts, literally.

 

MMR is not capped at 3000.

 

There is a lognormal curve for a given server's MMR, which, depending on your rank distance from the mean, will produce a value added (or subtracted) to your MMR, after the match.  There is nothing keeping that from exceeding 3000.  Or from going negative.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

...

i can smurf to 2500 in under 24 hours

 

 

To be fair, it will require play in servers over 2200 for a significant portion of this time. Which servers can be hard to come by.

[Nept]

if xacius was 3k mmr and the next 11 best players were 3k mmr and he beat them until he was 3.5k mmr, would he continue gaining mmr from them at the same rate as he moved toward 4k, or would his growth diminish?

 

If Xacius were 3k mmr.  Subjunctive mood.

[devotion]

If Xacius were 3k mmr.  Subjunctive mood.

diaf

[Nightfirebolt]

Alternatively, you could stop caring about alts and/or smurfing.

 

Since the matchmaker is broken right now, I don't care. I just don't see why they're necessary anymore.

 

However, if the matchmaker actually worked as intended, I would care - because pubstomping low-rank players for lulz (or for the sake of preserving your MMR pride) actually hurts the game.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 10 January 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[Nept]

Was speaking with JeffMagnum about smurfing and MMR awhile back.  It seems to us that past a certain MMR (say, 2600), and within your average lobby, the matchmaker places too much emphasis on the high-MMR player's carrying capacity.  We actually notice better-matched teams on our 2300-2400 alts than on our mains (or higher MMr alts).  Within Omni, everyone who has an alt (i.e., essentially every Omni) uses them to avoid having to carry constantly while pubbing.  Expect it's similar across the high-MMR board.

 

There's a misconception that high-level players are making alts to stomp newbies, but the reality is that carrying becomes tiresome.  Sometimes we do just want to screw around for fun.  Now, people can either accept or fuss over that, but high-level players aren't going to stop using alt accounts any time soon.

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 10 January 2016 - 05:59 PM.

[SS396]

That is just not true at all.

Proof? See response to Crock a bit further down.
 

Nept's going to help you say it a bit better, and point out that you're looking for "could never have happened".  Also, when Hyginos and devo mention diminishing returns, they're referencing the effects of Hawken's diminished population.  Because there aren't many high-MMR players remaining (and because there haven't been for some time), the practical effect on MMR is diminishing returns.  That's also the reason that Xacius' MMR increased during TPG games: he was playing for Hawken's top team, in our most point-friendly position, and against players with relatively similar MMRs.
 
Contrary to your claims, neither devo nor Hyginos are stating that diminishing returns are built into Hawken's MMR equation - except insofar as the unavailability of high-MMR players makes those diminishing returns a practical truth.  Devotion spent almost an entire post explaining that to you.

 
I don't see Devos argument as that at all, and who knew you could get English lessons from a Canadian.
 

That is completely and utterly false. Nearly the entire roster of TDM has been playing Hawken for less than a year, for example.

Really, cause last time I checked something that was a fuzzy bunnyng year old wasn't very new. How about showing me some actual players (I'll even lower the standards to 2k MMR) that have only been around for say, a month or two. Thats what I'd consider new. Shouldn't be hard to find if they are so plentiful. Chop chop.
 

if xacius was 3k mmr and the next 11 best players were 3k mmr and he beat them until he was 3.5k mmr, would he continue gaining mmr from them at the same rate as he moved toward 4k, or would his growth diminish?
 
the limit here is the best available competition, which both xacius and hestoned are well accustomed to. the diminished returns come from the fact that their growth outpaces that of their available peers.
 
shooting past something is a relative term. i can smurf to 2500 in under 24 hours, and say that i "shot past" 1200 mmr. pushing from 2.9x to 3k+ in over a week or even a month is "shooting past" it, when you consider that it was an accomplishment with no prior precedence.

Thats a terrible fail of an example, and mostly its too vague.

Theres 5 other players in that lobby that will be gaining MMR also, but because you are trying to lock everything down which not only is completely unrealistic, its highly improbable. More improbable than someone spending 1250 hours to gain 50 MMR .01 MMR at a time.

In that specific case his growth would diminish but only because the average of the lobby should be stagnant at 3k (or maybe even lowering), assuming it disperses rewards and deductions equally across both sides. In honesty I don't know the answer to how it rewards and punishes, but I'm pretty sure it punishes more severe than it rewards based upon my experience.

The difference of a players MMR, to the average of the server is still the underlying deciding factor here. So in order to keep Xac's gains non diminishing all one has to do is every so often remove the lowest MMR player and bring the average of the lobby up, at which point Xacs gains would all the sudden magically increase when compared to the previous one. See how that worked?

Like I said 5 times now, its based off of who all is in the lobby, and all it takes is one other person to constitute as an average. It doesn't always have to be a full lobby of 12 people.
 

To be fair, it will require play in servers over 2200 for a significant portion of this time. Which servers can be hard to come by.

A.k.a clustering with other high tiers.

This is like fuzzy bunnyng groundhogs day.

[DieselCat]

Since the matchmaker is broken right now, I don't care. I just don't see why they're necessary anymore.

 

However, if the matchmaker actually worked as intended, I would care - because pubstomping low-rank players for lulz (or for the sake of preserving your MMR pride) actually hurts the game.

 

I agree...

[devotion]

I don't see Devos argument as that at all, and who knew you could get English lessons from a Canadian.

that's literally my entire argument. i used a "mostly too vague" example because you didn't seem to be comprehending it (clearly so) in more realistic terms.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

A.k.a clustering with other high tiers.

This is like fuzzy bunnyng groundhogs day.

 

 

No.  I, for example, do not go looking for opportunities to play in high MMR rooms where others are excluded.  I *do* enthusiastically play such matches when I find them in public servers. Others will attest.

 

You are trying to make it appear I said something I did not, which would seem, at least by the evidence in this thread, to be a common theme with you.

 

I said, to make a 24-hr recovery to 2500, would require servers which are no longer at an average 2400 MMR. 

 

I did not say that they are exclusively the domain of private parties nor imply they were organized.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Can we please get over this argument? I can see the reasoning behind both sides but a discussion like this is mostly useless until the devs get to actually doing something that is not back-end work. And if they are reading this thread then they should have gotten a good idea on what the problem is and (probably should) be brainstorming a way around it. Other than that, I suggest that we should be giving ideas on how to improve this problem that has been extensively discussed. But what do I know? I'm only a measly 1800 MMR player who's match-making rank drops far more than it gains per game. I also only experience one end of the two sides of the argument so any input I...input is biased and is not a viable source of information. 

 

I am slightly surprised that the discussion is still civilized, so props to everyone for that.

[coldform]

lol. this thread looks weird with SS ignored. 

 

@SS396: I would have PMed you.. but no.

 

BTW, good job using relativistic scale for your argument.  Lets set the cutoff for "being New" at 5 years:

 

everyone is new!

 

a few months ago I would've invited you and we could have had a friendly discussion about this, but frankly, you're one of the very few people we don't want playing with TDM. even in an open event.  That puts you in the same group as spammers, cheaters, and excessive fuzztalkers.

 

good day to you sir.

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 10 January 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[Luaq]

All of you just miss the point besides  the mmr factor. The risks to lose mmr or gain isn't the topic here:

The real pain in the ass is to play and get annihilated (while being the best of your team), by this one guy, even though you did all you can, there was this beyond boss player in this mid tier server crushing everyone. I can't imagine how the experience was discouraging and bad for the others players in my team. It's just making it all soo much not enjoyable.

It's just not any hardcore player's place to be matched up against noobs (in terms of experience even the second best player is a noob compared to him... Though the player himself at some point is not his fault, the problem is that there's about 150-200 players world wide playing hawken constantly.

Saying to us to "get better" is just an excuse to justify the abuse and discredit the feeling felt here of the other players getting HARDCORE SMASHED.
For argument's sake: Same logic= "Hey if the girl didn't want to get raped she just should have been stronger to defend herself"
Really??? I don't think so.

Now my personal opinion is that I would like to go 1v1 against him or see him in Death match, I wouldn't care or would love to but in TDM? Siege? MA?
Such hardcore players make all the difference and it's taking off the fun of all the rest of the players. 1 players ruining 11 other players experience.

So please refrain from going in tdm/siege/ma games where players are trying to learn but can't because they just get destroyed in less than 3seconds.
You want to have fun and don't care about your mmr but don't want to risk anything? Just join DM's and everyone will be happy. DM is about owning others and have all the points for oneself.

Here's another way to imagine it: A war between two teams is happening, but fuzzy bunny fuzzy bunny Armageddon randomly drops down on only one team. The other team didn't even have to fight and don't even understand why they won and NO ONE LEARNED ANYTHING while the others are just filled up with confusion and discouragement of not understanding why they didn't one and actually felt like they had something going on. This makes it so that everything there is biased. If someone learned something it's null because it was in a not normal environment.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________


Edit: All of these ill feelings can be calmed down if theses smurfs players simply say there aren't supposed to be there.
Heck I do this myself with my account when I'm mistakenly matched in a server where I just roll over everyone. I do mention that I have an unfair advantage and that I'm sorry about it but won't quit until the game is done.

Btw sitting out an account to keep the "medal of honor (mmr)" is the same as a MMA champion keeping the belt to himslef while skipping matches saying he's sick or whatever reason or trying to push back the fight date because the risk to lose is just too high. It's cheap, unfair and messes up the game itself.

Edited by Luaq, 10 January 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[Aregon]

I swear you can have a thread about potatoes grown in South America and it will turn to an everlasting argument.

[Silverfire]

So please refrain from going in tdm/siege/ma games where players are trying to learn but can't because they just get destroyed in less than 3seconds.
You want to have fun and don't care about your mmr but don't want to risk anything? Just join DM's and everyone will be happy. DM is about owning others and have all the points for oneself.

 

I don't like DM

 

What do I do

[Nept]

Saying to us to "get better" is just an excuse to justify the abuse and discredit the feeling felt here of the other players getting HARDCORE SMASHED.

 

Same logic= "Hey if the girl didn't want to get raped she just should have been stronger to defend herself"

 

Really??? I don't think so.
 

 

Really??? Indeed.

[devotion]

Hey if the girl

these are the same thing

[coldform]

Really??? Indeed.

Luaq has joined the ranks of TDM. I can't think of a better way to foster a positive attitude towards skill differences of any kind than to put earnest effort into our training regimen. If he sticks with it, he'll come around.

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 10 January 2016 - 11:13 PM.

[JesusHatesWisc]

SMURFS AND ALTS ARE A CANCER TO HAWKEN.  Thanks for ruining Hawken Hestoned.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

�and don't forget to blame a-classes.

[coldform]

�and don't forget to blame a-classes.

I am bad. And I feel bad.

I will run brawler from now on.
Or not.

[TheButtSatisfier]

How about showing me some actual players (I'll even lower the standards to 2k MMR) that have only been around for say, a month or two. Thats what I'd consider new. Shouldn't be hard to find if they are so plentiful. Chop chop.

 

https://community.pl...hes-ever-today/

https://community.pl...pic/3953-hello/

https://community.pl...ductions/page-6 (further down to get in your date range)

 

who knew you could get English lessons from a Canadian

 

How would that be any different from a Canadian getting English lessons from an American? You realize both countries adopted the language from a place called England right?

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 11 January 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[DallasCreeper]

 

I am bad

 

 

I will run brawle from now on

 

Stop it coldform, you're turning into me

[CraftyDus]

why do you have a no foreigner slogan in your signature?

 

 

Duh, Murica.

And its not a slogan, its a U.S. government restrictive caveat.

 

 

Duh, but when you use it, it's zxenophobic, racist, and bigoted.

Edited by CraftyDus, 11 January 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

"zenophobic"???

[CraftyDus]

"zenophobic"???

 

 

The double z, so ya, ? or x

tomato tomato

[crockrocket]

Proof? See response to Crock a bit further down.
 
 

Really, cause last time I checked something that was a fuzzy bunnyng year old wasn't very new. How about showing me some actual players (I'll even lower the standards to 2k MMR) that have only been around for say, a month or two. Thats what I'd consider new. Shouldn't be hard to find if they are so plentiful. Chop chop.
 
 

 

K

[Miscellaneous]

You realize both countries adopted the language from a place called England right?

 

 

But seriously when can we get that fanfic

 

pls

[_incitatus]

Proof? See response to Crock a bit further down.
 

Really, cause last time I checked something that was a fuzzy bunnyng year old wasn't very new. How about showing me some actual players (I'll even lower the standards to 2k MMR) that have only been around for say, a month or two. Thats what I'd consider new. Shouldn't be hard to find if they are so plentiful. Chop chop.
 

 

You call that proof?  Really?  After all the arguing you do, you expect someone to accept that as proof?

 

Since you are the one making the assertion, how about showing us your proof that there are no new players and only smurfs?

[SS396]

that's literally my entire argument. i used a "mostly too vague" example because you didn't seem to be comprehending it (clearly so) in more realistic terms.

 
Well, had you actually explained things better the first time then maybe we could of avoided this whole thing where two people are arguing about two different things independently.
 

No.  I, for example, do not go looking for opportunities to play in high MMR rooms where others are excluded.  I *do* enthusiastically play such matches when I find them in public servers. Others will attest.
 
You are trying to make it appear I said something I did not, which would seem, at least by the evidence in this thread, to be a common theme with you.
 
I said, to make a 24-hr recovery to 2500, would require servers which are no longer at an average 2400 MMR. 
 
I did not say that they are exclusively the domain of private parties nor imply they were organized.

First off, Clustering in no way implies that there is any exclusions going on. That was never said, I was simply agreeing with your statement. Clustering simply means to congregate by seeking a player or players that share an MMR that is relatively close to your own. There are many ways this can be achieved, both willingly and unwillingly, some are even built into the game by default.
 

lol. this thread looks weird with SS ignored. 
 
@SS396: I would have PMed you.. but no.
 
BTW, good job using relativistic scale for your argument.  Lets set the cutoff for "being New" at 5 years:
 
everyone is new!
 
a few months ago I would've invited you and we could have had a friendly discussion about this, but frankly, you're one of the very few people we don't want playing with TDM. even in an open event.  That puts you in the same group as spammers, cheaters, and excessive fuzztalkers.
 
good day to you sir.

 
No, this couldn't of been a PM from you. I have you blocked as I do others that I don't wish to receive PM's from. So yeah, it is a fine day for me. Thanks.
 

https://community.pl...hes-ever-today/
https://community.pl...pic/3953-hello/
https://community.pl...ductions/page-6 (further down to get in your date range)
 
 
How would that be any different from a Canadian getting English lessons from an American? You realize both countries adopted the language from a place called England right?

Thanks for the attempt but it needs MMR data that I asked for. Maybe you weren't reading or paying attention to the thread, but thats ok. You are free to try again.
  

K

Steam profile name please?

You do realize that the account you linked looks very suspicious as a smurf right? I certainly am skeptical. It is abnormally above average for 50 hours of play and a 2200 MMR, especially after people have mentioned in this whole running thread about how it appears to be harder to gain MMR due to the vacancy of high MMR players over the recent months.

[Nept]

Do better, devo.

[SS396]

You call that proof?  Really?  After all the arguing you do, you expect someone to accept that as proof?
 
Since you are the one making the assertion, how about showing us your proof that there are no new players and only smurfs?

I didn't call that proof. I asked you for proof. Hence the question mark indicating a question.

I don't have access to that sort of data or I would gladly show it. But Hawken for a long time hasn't had an influx of new players, this is nothing new. Maybe when Reloaded took over there was a bit of an influx, but since that time can you really say that new people are even finding the game with little to no advertising?

[_incitatus]

I didn't call that proof. I asked you for proof. Hence the question mark indicating a question.

I don't have access to that sort of data or I would gladly show it. But Hawken for a long time hasn't had an influx of new players, this is nothing new. Maybe when Reloaded took over there was a bit of an influx, but since that time can you really say that new people are even finding the game with little to no advertising?

 

Sorry, I took that as a rhetorical "Proof?".

 

I'll just dismiss your claim since the onus lies with you and not me.  You're making a claim without backing it up, and even go so far as to say you CAN'T back it up, so I don't have fuzzy bunny to prove to you.

 

I see new players in game all the time. 

[DallasCreeper]

Take it from the noob-level pro. I've seen plenty of new players in pubs.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Thanks for the attempt but it needs MMR data that I asked for. Maybe you weren't reading or paying attention to the thread, but thats ok. You are free to try again.

 

Nah, feel free to do your own legwork.

[Nept]

 

No, this couldn't of been a PM from you. I have you blocked as I do others that I don't wish to receive PM's from. So yeah, it is a fine day for me. Thanks.

 

Today, on English Lessons from a Canadian:

 

"No, this couldn't have been . . ."

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 11 January 2016 - 12:28 PM.