96 replies to this topic

[peacecraftSLD]

Ok seriously guys, I read these threads and it's like you guys are fuzzy bunny in an ocean of fuzzy bunny.

 

I fail to see how this is "Pay to win" still, even on console with the Free Bundles or W/E, as skill doesn't equal money and we have all proven that in Hawken before. I think that's the only amusement I get right now is still hearing how people think this is play to win or going to think this is play to win. Just wow. 

Edited by peacecraftSLD, 11 July 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[harmless_kittens]

If they make these changes to the PC as well (and don't get me wrong, I hope they don't), and start us all back at zero, many PC players, including many in these forums WILL pay for those new mechs.  Many have already paid over $100 into the game already.  I can conceive of some of them walking away, but not all of them.

 

And, uh, hating the actual players who do "pay to win"?  That seems a little extreme.  But, whatever.

[StubbornPuppet]

I fail to see how this is "Pay to win" still, even on console with the Free Bundles or W/E, as skill doesn't equal money and we have all proven that in Hawken before. I think that's the only amusement I get right now is still hearing how people think this is play to win or going to think this is play to win. Just wow. 

 

I fail to see how you can fail to see that the Nief is an overpowered, imbalancing mech that almost guarantees victory to the player who wields it.  And the fact that the Nief is ONLY available if you pay for the bundle that includes it means that it is a "Pay2Win" mech.

 

This has nothing to do with anything related to the current or historical builds of Hawken.  This is what is now available on consoles and will be coming soon to PC.  I have fervently defended Hawken for years now against any claim of Pay2Win, because it has never been remotely P2W in any way... until the console release.

 

If they make these changes to the PC as well (and don't get me wrong, I hope they don't), and start us all back at zero, many PC players, including many in these forums WILL pay for those new mechs.  Many have already paid over $100 into the game already.  I can conceive of some of them walking away, but not all of them.

 

And, uh, hating the actual players who do "pay to win"?  That seems a little extreme.  But, whatever.

 

I would put and do put real money into Free to Play games for cosmetics and other items which do not give me a competitive edge.  I will not support allowing people to pay for an advantage though.  We already live in a world where those who have disposable income are allowed to trample on the rights and dignity of those who do not - I do not wish to bring that ugly truth to fruition in my virtual entertainment. (Yeah, I get that it's just a game and not 'real'... but games need to have rules that put all players on an equal footing so that only skill and talent determine the victor.)

 

And I do hate people who would seek to pay to have an advantage that helps ensure their victory over those who do not have (or are willing to spend) real money to get a leg up.  You yourself, harmless-kittens, have raged on about how there is no anti-cheat or willingness on behalf of the devs to do anything to stop people from buying hacks that let them have an advantage - but you are okay with the devs actually building a similar system right into the game?  How do you rationalize that?

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 11 July 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[KejiGoto]

This game has to make them some money.  Yes they are using a very light Pay to win model. 

 

Light P2W model? What are you talking about? The G2 line is objectively superior to the G1 line in every way. They've been designed to be a direct upgrade and can be earned spending real money which grants a distinct advantage over others who don't spend money to unlock them early. 

They even have mechs you can't play unless you spend actual money on them and there's already a decent amount of proof that these (Nief and Charge) are overpowered and unbalanced. 

These aren't light P2W elements, this are built into the core aspects of the game and what Hawken seems to revolve around now (unlocking the G2 line). 

Light P2W elements would kind of be what Hawken is now on PC where you can pay to unlock certain things early but the real advantage comes from skill. Reloaded made skill take a backseat with these direct upgrades and vertical progression. Sure on the PC you can buy internals and so forth with money which give you some slight bonuses and can give you the edge in a match but ultimately pilot skill is going to decide those battles. Heck even the weapons are better on the G2 line than the G1 line.

[peacecraftSLD]

I fail to see how you can fail to see that the Nief is an overpowered, imbalancing mech that almost guarantees victory to the player who wields it.  And the fact that the Nief is ONLY available if you pay for the bundle that includes it means that it is a "Pay2Win" mech.

 

This has nothing to do with anything related to the current or historical builds of Hawken.  This is what is now available on consoles and will be coming soon to PC.  I have fervently defended Hawken for years now against any claim of Pay2Win, because it has never been remotely P2W in any way... until the console release.

 

Never said that I didn't think the Neif wasn't overpowered. I replied to a thread in the PS4 forums that I said it was and needs a nerf. I do see it has overpowered at the moment but I have been dealing with the just fine. Yes, the Neif needs a nerf on its weapons as it is to powerful.

 

This all sounds familiar, something is really strong at a really part that involves money........OMG THAT IS BREAKING THE GAME!!!!! Big deal. They all die the same way.

 

I still don't see the consoles as "Pay to win" as I have yet to see everyone "pay"  for the same mech, same items, same internals, and only that mech is the most absolute viable mech in every situation. If you don't know how to beat a seeker missile, you just need to play more hawken.

[harmless_kittens]

Whoa.  I am NOT OK with it, nor do I want it.  (Thought I made that clear.)  I can't afford to pay.  But this the good 'ole USA man, and I believe in individual freedom not only of individuals to better themselves, but also the companies they work for.  I definitely don't want someone stopping companies from doing what is needed to make money and better their employees, so long as its not illegal.  There's all sorts of "unethical" (again, subjective) practices out there in the business world, and this just might be another one.  And I don't "hate" companies that do this, nor their employees, nor those who take advantage of what they are being offered.  I don't want socialism to encroach on our entertainment.  That's all I'm saying.

 

I also can't afford to take my family to Disney World, or on a cruise, or snow skiing, or to New Zealand, or drive a Ferrari, etc.  Unfair?  Nah, just life.  The rich people (most of them) worked hard to get where they are, so that they could buy things that poor people can't.  THAT'S what I don't have a problem with.

[TheButtSatisfier]

This is probably common knowledge for some, but:

 

Can the G2 mechs be unlocked using HC once the G1 variant has been max-leveled? Or are all G2-mechs unlockable exclusively with money?

[_incitatus]

If they make these changes to the PC as well (and don't get me wrong, I hope they don't), and start us all back at zero, many PC players, including many in these forums WILL pay for those new mechs.  Many have already paid over $100 into the game already.  I can conceive of some of them walking away, but not all of them.

 

And, uh, hating the actual players who do "pay to win"?  That seems a little extreme.  But, whatever.

 

No again.  That would be such a dirty move, trying to compel the existing players who have already spent money to spend even more by taking away what they have already purchased in order to make them buy it again? 

 

What makes you think anyone would want to give them money if they did that?  If they reset us all back to zero I expect a huge MC and HC refund.  I have burned through at LEAST 60k MC and am still sitting on almost half that much waiting for new content.  Not to mention all the HC and universal XP I'm sitting on.

 

I couldn't care less about an MMR reset, but stripping people of their mechs and cosmetic purchases will be the last straw for a lot of people.

[StubbornPuppet]

Sorry Peacecraft, I cannot see posts in the PS4 section.   I still strongly disagree that having P2W in a Free to Play game doesn't make it a P2W game - because it kinda does.  Even if people can learn to overcome people who have that advantage with their skill, it's still an unfair imbalance to allow an unskilled player to stand on equal ground with a skilled player by using money.

 

Kittens, I am not opposed to your ideology, I'm just expressing my feelings about games that promote income inequality by giving an advantage to the affluent.  Also, "this" is not the good-ole USA - this is the whole world - Hawken is available just about everywhere.  I realize that doesn't mean anything in the overall scheme of this discussion, but you used it as the basis to support your belief in individual freedom to better ones self.  :P   (And while we're thinking about all the rich people who worked hard to get where they are, let's not forget the poor people who worked even harder... just to be stuck where they are.  Working hard (even working smart) doesn't guarantee financial success - that starts with either coming from financial success or being fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time to take advantage of an opportunity that allows you to elevate yourself from poverty.)

[Hyginos]

This is probably common knowledge for some, but:

 

Can the G2 mechs be unlocked using HC once the G1 variant has been max-leveled? Or are all G2-mechs unlockable exclusively with money?

 

 

You can buy G2s for HC once the G1 flavor is leveled, just like current PC patch.

[peacecraftSLD]

Sorry Peacecraft, I cannot see posts in the PS4 section.   I still strongly disagree that having P2W in a Free to Play game doesn't make it a P2W game - because it kinda does.  Even if people can learn to overcome people who have that advantage with their skill, it's still an unfair imbalance to allow an unskilled player to stand on equal ground with a skilled player by using money.

 

Well, let's agree to disagree (Not sure if I am using this right). I am having fun playing on the Consoles with this Hawken. I hope that when this does go to PC, most things will be smoothed out.

[Fstroke]

I fail to see how you can fail to see that the Nief is an overpowered, imbalancing mech that almost guarantees victory to the player who wields it. And the fact that the Nief is ONLY available if you pay for the bundle that includes it means that it is a "Pay2Win" mech.

This has nothing to do with anything related to the current or historical builds of Hawken. This is what is now available on consoles and will be coming soon to PC. I have fervently defended Hawken for years now against any claim of Pay2Win, because it has never been remotely P2W in any way... until the console release.


I would put and do put real money into Free to Play games for cosmetics and other items which do not give me a competitive edge. I will not support allowing people to pay for an advantage though. We already live in a world where those who have disposable income are allowed to trample on the rights and dignity of those who do not - I do not wish to bring that ugly truth to fruition in my virtual entertainment. (Yeah, I get that it's just a game and not 'real'... but games need to have rules that put all players on an equal footing so that only skill and talent determine the victor.)

And I do hate people who would seek to pay to have an advantage that helps ensure their victory over those who do not have (or are willing to spend) real money to get a leg up. You yourself, harmless-kittens, have raged on about how there is no anti-cheat or willingness on behalf of the devs to do anything to stop people from buying hacks that let them have an advantage - but you are okay with the devs actually building a similar system right into the game? How do you rationalize that?

Just to clarify the nief is free, it's just an early access package right now for PS plus members and whatever the xbone equivalent is. Soon to be released for all.

The ability is overpowered at any level but the mech is a piece of garbage for the most part. Easily countered by anyone who knows what they are doing. Detrimental to beginners though.

[harmless_kittens]

No again.  That would be such a dirty move, trying to compel the existing players who have already spent money to spend even more by taking away what they have already purchased in order to make them buy it again? 

 

What makes you think anyone would want to give them money if they did that?  If they reset us all back to zero I expect a huge MC and HC refund.  I have burned through at LEAST 60k MC and am still sitting on almost half that much waiting for new content.  Not to mention all the HC and universal XP I'm sitting on.

 

I couldn't care less about an MMR reset, but stripping people of their mechs and cosmetic purchases will be the last straw for a lot of people.

It would be a last straw for me also.  Again, I agree that those who paid to buy MC (like myself) should get it back.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

Is anyone aware of any *successful* Free-to-Play game that has neither vertical progression nor Pay-to-Win elements?  This isn't a purely rhetorical question.  I'm honestly curious.

 

The only 2 FTP games other than Hawken that I have any credible experience with are Clash of Clans on mobile, and Hearthstone.

 

Clash of Clans is absolutely and purely 100% all vertical progression.  And no P2W.  Its only pay-not-to-grind.  And when I say purely, 100% vertical progression, no amount of skill can overcome a lvl 7 player from going up against a lvl 10 player.  Skill does become a factor when you consider two players close in level.  But, match making makes it so differing levels only go against each other if the player chooses to do so.

 

Hearthstone has both vertical progression and obvious P2W elements.  The more you play, the more chances you have to access objectively better cards.  And some of the best objectively better cards are only available through paid expansion packs.  The game, however, is balanced to the extent that skill can overcome the difference in the power of your cards.  A basic deck in the hands of a skilled player can beat an average player using a very expensive deck.  Luck also plays a factor.

 

I understand that at its core, Hawken is a competitive FPS, which is a much different breed of game than some quasi Real-Time-Strategy or Card game.  But, my point in bringing these two games to light is that they both incorporate the forbidden pay-to-win or vertical progression elements, but yet manage to be wildly successful.  My understanding is that you need some elements of your game to not only keep players coming back, but have them *pay* to come back.  The delicate side of things is to make sure the elements that have players *pay* to come back don't imbalance the game to beyond the point that skill can't make up the difference.

 

Without having played this new console version, it seems to me that some stat tweaks to the G2 variants of each mech are still within the range of skill overcoming the difference in superiority over their G1 counterpart.  I doubt an average player is going to wreck a server just because he's in his G2 mech while the other, possibly more skilled, players are still rocking the G1 mechs.

 

Even with the G2 mechs being a clear (yet shallow) vertical progession path, this game is still at its core a skill-based, competitve FPS.  Skilled players will still always have the advantage over the unskilled players.  And now, instead of those unskilled players quitting and never coming back... they have the option to purchase some more powerful mechs to see if that makes a difference.  Maybe they'll find that no, it doesn't make a difference, but at least they contributed to keeping the game alive for the rest of the skilled players to keep playing.

[Hyginos]

Is anyone aware of any *successful* Free-to-Play game that has neither vertical progression nor Pay-to-Win elements?  This isn't a purely rhetorical question.  I'm honestly curious.

 

Well the obvious comparisons are League of Legends, TF2, and DOTA. Warframe is of course very successful, but it is almost entirely PvE, so vertical progression is an integral mechanic to the game.

 

In League of Legends everything that is not cosmetic can be unlocked with free currency, though the grind is such that a new player starting today is mathematically unable to ever own all the champions. Vertical progression exists in the form of rune pages and masteries, though I think these have been reworked since I last knew things about LoL so they may be different now.

 

TF2 and DOTA, from my understanding at least, have no vertical progression whatsoever, and cash is for cosmetics only. These two games have the benefit of being run by Valve, however, and thus are poor comparisons to other F2P games.

 

Planetside 2 was billed as having sidegrades, though as I recall those sidegrades had some vertical progression built in. Again only cosmetics are pay exclusive.

 

Short answer to your question is probably "no" because Valve sponsored F2P games don't count.

[Mevaker]

Is anyone aware of any *successful* Free-to-Play game that has neither vertical progression nor Pay-to-Win elements?  This isn't a purely rhetorical question.  I'm honestly curious.

 

The only 2 FTP games other than Hawken that I have any credible experience with are Clash of Clans on mobile, and Hearthstone.

 

Clash of Clans is absolutely and purely 100% all vertical progression.  And no P2W.  Its only pay-not-to-grind.  And when I say purely, 100% vertical progression, no amount of skill can overcome a lvl 7 player from going up against a lvl 10 player.  Skill does become a factor when you consider two players close in level.  But, match making makes it so differing levels only go against each other if the player chooses to do so.

 

Hearthstone has both vertical progression and obvious P2W elements.  The more you play, the more chances you have to access objectively better cards.  And some of the best objectively better cards are only available through paid expansion packs.  The game, however, is balanced to the extent that skill can overcome the difference in the power of your cards.  A basic deck in the hands of a skilled player can beat an average player using a very expensive deck.  Luck also plays a factor.

 

I understand that at its core, Hawken is a competitive FPS, which is a much different breed of game than some quasi Real-Time-Strategy or Card game.  But, my point in bringing these two games to light is that they both incorporate the forbidden pay-to-win or vertical progression elements, but yet manage to be wildly successful.  My understanding is that you need some elements of your game to not only keep players coming back, but have them *pay* to come back.  The delicate side of things is to make sure the elements that have players *pay* to come back don't imbalance the game to beyond the point that skill can't make up the difference.

 

Without having played this new console version, it seems to me that some stat tweaks to the G2 variants of each mech are still within the range of skill overcoming the difference in superiority over their G1 counterpart.  I doubt an average player is going to wreck a server just because he's in his G2 mech while the other, possibly more skilled, players are still rocking the G1 mechs.

 

Even with the G2 mechs being a clear (yet shallow) vertical progession path, this game is still at its core a skill-based, competitve FPS.  Skilled players will still always have the advantage over the unskilled players.  And now, instead of those unskilled players quitting and never coming back... they have the option to purchase some more powerful mechs to see if that makes a difference.  Maybe they'll find that no, it doesn't make a difference, but at least they contributed to keeping the game alive for the rest of the skilled players to keep playing.

Check out a little Gem called warframe, did not read your entire post, just read the first (main) question, also...as sad as it may sound, League of Legends. Both are different types of games, but they are F2P and even the prime (premium) stuff on Warframe can be crafted , and spending cash on anything other than skins in league is straight up stupid, but it does support the ideology that some more of that paid cosmetic content in this game may have proven profitable.

Edited by Mevaker, 11 July 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[CounterlogicMan]

I think this gif embodies the pc forums the last week and a half.

 

 

Completely unwilling to even consider that the console release has done anything right. Despite only having seen screenshots and streams of the game. 

 

It's pretty nice having a version of Hawken I can play where everyone is actually enjoying their time playing it, stick around more than 2 games after installing it, don't complain about not having items/internals that are locked behind vertical progression, not having AC/repair orbs/emp on every fuzzy bunny mech, actually seeing new mechs and cosmetics, being able to find a match for any game mode quickly, feeling like I have meaningful choice when deciding how to progress down the tree/upgrades next, and really the best part is getting to play Hawken with more of my friends because most of them don't have gaming PCs. 

But hey, if you look at the PC forums. You would think that the console version was a strict downgrade, pay 2 win, terrible dead game compared to the version on PC. Which really if you think critically and objectively, is a purely ludicrous notion. Complain all you want, it really doesn't matter because the number of people enjoying Hawken on the console and sticking around to play more of it speaks for itself as does the bitter attitudes on this forum.

 

There are some problems with the console version. They are hopefully being addressed by the devs internally. Hoping doom on the company and the game because you are bitter about some of the changes isn't doing anything and only makes the devs less likely to want to interact on the forums. The constructive criticism parts of your posts are awesome though, keep that up. Because that feedback is what is going to effect the PC re release. You know that we aren't getting the exact version that is on the consoles right?

 

Btw real advantage in Hawken always comes from skill. If you think having 25 more armor or 15% more repair charge extraction rate is going to consistently be the reason you win fights. You must not be very confident in your own skill. If I need to explain how to kill a nief or charge with CR-T and 3 tow rockets.... Going to go catch some pokemon now.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 11 July 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Brother3J]

Light P2W model? What are you talking about? The G2 line is objectively superior to the G1 line in every way. They've been designed to be a direct upgrade and can be earned spending real money which grants a distinct advantage over others who don't spend money to unlock them early. 

They even have mechs you can't play unless you spend actual money on them and there's already a decent amount of proof that these (Nief and Charge) are overpowered and unbalanced. 

These aren't light P2W elements, this are built into the core aspects of the game and what Hawken seems to revolve around now (unlocking the G2 line). 

Light P2W elements would kind of be what Hawken is now on PC where you can pay to unlock certain things early but the real advantage comes from skill. Reloaded made skill take a backseat with these direct upgrades and vertical progression. Sure on the PC you can buy internals and so forth with money which give you some slight bonuses and can give you the edge in a match but ultimately pilot skill is going to decide those battles. Heck even the weapons are better on the G2 line than the G1 line.

I was under the impression that the cash only mechs were going to be made available for HC after the "beta" period for Consoles.

 

Now if that is wrong then yes I would agree with you.  I agree that Reloaded has changed the skill factor for Consoles. I do not want them to do that to the PC. Let them milk the console kiddies for cash.  

 

I think Reloaded, will find that some of their future partners, could make the current PC build, with bug fixes and map optimization, very profitable for them. (Cryptic embedded message )

 

Again they don't need to have parity between consoles and PC.  The Hawken console version is just not Prime Time material.  (hmmm another cryptic message)

 

I got nothing to back this up right now but everything will be fine....

[talon70]

The ps site says you have a certain mech as long as you remain a playstation plus account holder. That is a rental at best or maybe extortion if there is no other way to get it.  That kind of 'stuff' turns a lot of people away imo and sure seems p2w.

[Hyginos]

Completely unwilling to even consider that the console release has done anything right. Despite only having seen screenshots and streams of the game.

Dawg. I put about 8 hours into the console patch and some time on top of that putting together a change log spreadsheet. We have a lot more than a few screenshots and some streams to go on.

 

Also, its not quantum rocket surgery. The patch changes for console are really very easy to grasp.

 

It's pretty nice having a version of Hawken I can play where everyone is actually enjoying their time playing it, stick around more than 2 games after installing it, don't complain about not having items/internals that are locked behind vertical progression, not having AC/repair orbs/emp on every fuzzy bunny mech, actually seeing new mechs and cosmetics, being able to find a match for any game mode quickly, feeling like I have meaningful choice when deciding how to progress down the tree/upgrades next, and really the best part is getting to play Hawken with more of my friends because most of them don't have gaming PCs.

They'll come around. Still star struck.
 
With that said I have no problem with hawken on console as a concept, and I doubt very many on the forums do. I think most of the salt coming from the PC forums stems from the fact that a lot of the changes they did make were in the opposite direction of many things the forum community considered to be obvious and agreed upon. We are, to put it as civilly as possible, concerned with the design direction of a game we love.

 

But hey, if you look at the PC forums. You would think that the console version was a strict downgrade, pay 2 win, terrible dead game compared to the version on PC. Which really if you think critically and objectively, is a purely ludicrous notion. Complain all you want, it really doesn't matter because the number of people enjoying Hawken on the console and sticking around to play more of it speaks for itself as does the bitter attitudes on this forum.
 
There are some problems with the console version. They are hopefully being addressed by the devs internally. Hoping doom on the company and the game because you are bitter about some of the changes isn't doing anything and only makes the devs less likely to want to interact on the forums. The constructive criticism parts of your posts are awesome though, keep that up. Because that feedback is what is going to effect the PC re release. You know that we aren't getting the exact version that is on the consoles right?

If you look at the PC forums and you're looking for it , maybe. There is a reason statisticians throw out outliers. It is the case that the console version has strictly, objectively, and inarguable fewer features than the PC version, which again I think is a reasonable source of some salt.

 

 

You know that we aren't getting the exact version that is on the consoles right?

No. We don't. We don't have a single god damned clue because RLD has both told us that that they want platform parity and that they will balance separately, all the while giving us the usual amount of non-committal non-information.

 

Though honestly even a similar version could be rather irritating, considering the patch is a shuffle of what was around already with a bunch of features removed.

 

My hope is that they just had a deadline to hit and they won't start pushing to patches to PC until they start doing some actual work on the game, as opposed to just getting the port to functional.

[KejiGoto]

 

-snip-

 

Pretty much agree with you here on this. 

 

Console version hasn't been out long enough to declare people are sticking around and enjoying the game. It hasn't even been out a month yet on consoles and let's also not forget that Hawken on consoles has a lot of shooter competition coming up. How many are gonna stick with Hawken once the big boys arrive this fall like Battlefield 1 or the new Call of Duty? What about when Titanfall 2 arrives? It's a little early to declare this a success when the true test of Howken's staying power will come this fall.

 

Secondly how is this forum to know that the console players are enjoying the game? This is something I mentioned before Tiggs decided to stupidly separate everything by platform. This forum only has its own perspective and outside of the random console player ending up in this section we've got very little interaction with the new audience which could provide some outside perspective on what newcomers think about this. Instead Tiggs threw up walls and finds it best to distribute information by responding in individual threads and generally making it rather difficult for PC players to know what is going on without having a console account.

 

And we've been providing feedback for quite some time now and doing so in a constructive manner. Where did that get us? Right where we are now and exactly as Hyginos said we have no clue what exactly is going on the PC version and how much things are going to change. We hear/see one thing then hear/see something completely different. There's no consistency here and it's getting frustrating because there's honestly no excuse.

 

Setup an interview with CapnJosh to get questions answered but sign an NDA? What kind of nonsense is that? Seriously what other company out there has ever done this before when interacting with its community? No successful company I'm pretty sure.

 

Not only that but let's not ignore Reloaded's questionable history when it comes to development and port jobs. Let's ignore the fact that Howken seems to be repeating many of the same issues we were warned about by the APB: Reloaded fan base who found themselves in a similar boat we're all in now.

 

There's a lot more than a few screenshots and some videos posted on Youtube. While I myself haven't had a chance to play yet (brother in-law has a PS4, might be going over there soon to check it out) there's numerous videos out there breaking down pretty much every aspect of the console version including a nearly two and a half hour stream from Hyginos going over everything. 

 

And even if there was only a few screen shots and some released videos why? Why isn't Reloaded sharing squat with the communities and why is everything being kept under wraps? Supposedly NDA's are up yet we sit here in the dark week after week. Oh and evidence is starting to stack up that GamersFirst has more to do with Howken than we were originally lead to believe with GamersFirst servers hosting Hawken, their website advertising it, and so on. 

 

There's a lot of questionable stuff going on and Reloaded isn't really doing anything to address it.

 

I have a hard time rationalizing less features and options as being an improvement. I have a hard time rationalizing a bigger focus on P2W elements as being an improvement. I have a hard time rationalizing a lack of control customization being an improvement. I'm seeing an awful lot of negative here with every little good and it feels like for every positive step forward Howken made (such as the weapons platform) Reloaded took three steps back removing other features and so forth. Perhaps if Reloaded started actually interacting with this community by sharing information and stop putting up ridiculous barriers between communities as well as getting questions answered people wouldn't be so frustrated.

 

Instead Reloaded started off interacting with us a lot, taking feedback into consideration such as switching out the CR-T for a fully loaded Assault, and so forth to pretty much ignoring the forums for a month or so at a time before making vague promises that our patience would be rewarded, announce that they've been working on a console port the whole time and the PC version hasn't had much done with it, they've decided to change up pretty much everything about the game, introduce more P2W elements, and then proceed to keep us at arm's length wondering why everyone is so frustrated and annoyed at this point. 

 

Reloaded set these expectations and Reloaded failed to meet them. They have no one to blame but themselves and this community could easily be quelled by releasing information and communicating their intentions instead of leaving it up for us to figure out.

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

 

obliviousness

 

Yep, it's totally only the forums that are disgusted by this version of Hawken.

Edited by ThereIsOnlyOne, 11 July 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[CounterlogicMan]

Yep, it's totally only the forums that are disgusted by this version of Hawken.

You use the word disgusted to describe a few posts about the obviously overpowered nief, no controller remapping, a known fps bug on the ps4, and an obvious bitter vet pc player trolling on reddit.

 

I think your post speaks for itself, but not in the way I think you intended it to. 

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 11 July 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

a known fps bug on the ps4,

 

lol

[crockrocket]

snip

 

The reason people are rioting is that there are definitely serious issues with the console version and reloaded doesn't communicate. No one is wishing doom upon hawken, in fact quite the opposite. Which is why we are being so vocal about this, we want the game to succeed. So far I haven't seen any evidence that RLD has done anything to improve player retention; if anything they've made it worse with the removal of customization etc.

 

At least the core gameplay has remained the same on console and I respect that, and if I had a console I''d probably be playing and enjoying console hawken as well. That doesn't change the fact that RLD fuzzy bunnyed up.

Edited by crockrocket, 11 July 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[CounterlogicMan]

lol

 

When you join a match the first minute or so you get stuttering fps on the ps4 version of the game. It smooths out after that. Some people also report having that issue after getting a kill/assist or getting killed. Pretty bad bug. 

 

As for what Hyginos and Keji said, I do agree with you on a few points. But largely you are just reiterating what you have already posted earlier. Most of which I do not agree with. I get that you guys want more communication from reloaded and they should communicate more but you guys are really shooting yourselves in the foot continuously in this regard.

 

edit:

Crock, what you and other pc players want in the game isn't necessarily what is good for player retention. Also, weapon/item/internal customization is going to come back but it needs some fixing up before it is put back in the game, go figure.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 11 July 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[crockrocket]

 

edit:

Crock, what you and other pc players want in the game isn't necessarily what is good for player retention. Also, weapon/item/internal customization is going to come back but it needs some fixing up before it is put back in the game, go figure.

 

Yeah I know, but player retention is really what I've been considering with regards to these changes, and in my estimation they haven't done jack to improve it. That to me is a huge concern because that's what will determine Hawken's success.

 

I saw that customization is coming back, hopefully that can happen soon.

[Fstroke]

The reason people are rioting is that there are definitely serious issues with the console version and reloaded doesn't communicate. No one is wishing doom upon hawken, in fact quite the opposite. Which is why we are being so vocal about this, we want the game to succeed. So far I haven't seen any evidence that RLD has done anything to improve player retention; if anything they've made it worse with the removal of customization etc.

At least the core gameplay has remained the same on console and I respect that, and if I had a console I''d probably be playing and enjoying console hawken as well. That doesn't change the fact that RLD fuzzy bunnyed up.

The only serious issues I have experienced is increasingly bad graphics performance.

I am sick of dual primary mechs and they have ruined the grenadier. Other than that the 30 mechs is a bit of embellishment.

That being said people are overreacting to the G2 scheme. It is essentially the same system we had before. Except rather than upgrading the internals yourself, you buy a mech with upgraded internals. Might actually be cheaper now. What they should do is let the base mechs equip another basic internal and item.

Also the lack of customization. Let's be honest there was a lack of customization before. Everyone used the same builds for the same mechs. I don't think this was an act of money grabbing evil. I think they were attempting a class based shooter.

Now the nief at best was questionable. But I have said it many times, the mech sucks. The problem is it's a crutch for new players, and annoying to fight if you don't know how to move. It also has an I win button for an ability. Once people get better at the game those things will phase out fast but the ability needs a nerf immediately.

And custom mappings need to happen. fuzzy bunnyng 180s

[BIsmuthZornisse]

Crock, what you and other pc players want in the game isn't necessarily what is good for player retention.

New content, even cosmetic, might be, though.

New things to spend money on would certainly help with the game's profitability, i think.

[Superkamikazee]

Let's get to the facts, Reloaded's "console" version reeks of mediocrity, and is a low effort, share holder pleasing, quick flip, cash grab. Player drop off will be staggering, but will Reloaded care when they've more than likely made back more than what it cost / spent to get this product out? Time will tell, as it always does.

[Str8Jacket223]

So the ps4 thoughts thread was moved. Are PC players not allowed to have a conversation about the console release? I am not signing up for the forums twice. fuzzy bunny is fuzzy bunnyng ridiculous

[Fstroke]

So the ps4 thoughts thread was moved. Are PC players not allowed to have a conversation about the console release? I am not signing up for the forums twice. fuzzy bunny is fuzzy bunnyng ridiculous

Apparently not. Even more annoying I can't be logged into both forums at the same time.

Wise up guys. Integrate the community

[DallasCreeper]

This is probably common knowledge for some, but:

 

Can the G2 mechs be unlocked using HC once the G1 variant has been max-leveled? Or are all G2-mechs unlockable exclusively with money?

It functions the same way as it does currently.

[Shade__]

I'v been lurking this thread from the start and all i have to say is just chill things will work themselves out.

[CraftyDus]

I'm never gonna forget the week people spent jumping up and down because they believed the charge was OP and completely invulnerable during its special ability, that the vanguard was buffed when it was nerfed, and that console hawken is pay to win when you can simply earn all the content as it always has been.

All the while failing to understand that the game plays virtually indentically, and is enjoying wide appeal among a new crop of future hawken zealots.

[6ixxer]

and can be earned spending real money which grants a distinct advantage over others who don't spend money to unlock them early. 

They even have mechs you can't play unless you spend actual money on them and there's already a decent amount of proof that these (Nief and Charge) are overpowered and unbalanced. 

 

1) Paying unlocks early only, it is not a paywall.

2) Console exclusives for gold members are a paywall, but you could have asked reloaded nicely when it would be opened to other console players for free.

 

There is a lot of mudslinging at Reloaded for doing what IMO is a fair job at taking over and growing Hawken.

Yes their communication could be better, but for that matter, so could the community's fuzzy bunny manners.

[KejiGoto]

1) Paying unlocks early only, it is not a paywall.

2) Console exclusives for gold members are a paywall, but you could have asked reloaded nicely when it would be opened to other console players for free.

 

There is a lot of mudslinging at Reloaded for doing what IMO is a fair job at taking over and growing Hawken.

Yes their communication could be better, but for that matter, so could the community's fuzzy bunny manners.

 

You confirmed everything I already posted and you highlighted it. Good job.

 

And people have been asking Reloaded (Tiggs) nicely for quite a bit of stuff and we haven't gotten much in return. In fact it took a few weeks for Tiggs to confirm that Reloaded is still under an NDA which explains the awful communication.

 

Now if you want questions answered about this kind of stuff you have to sign an NDA and then you can ask CapnJosh. 

 

And from what I've seen this hasn't been a fair job at taking over and growing Hawken. From where I'm standing they stripped out options and features, seemed to have launched early (can't even change up the controls for example), and have moved to a stronger P2W model than Hawken has ever seen before. 

 

Sorry I don't agree with what Reloaded is doing and I'm voicing my concern, providing feedback, and sharing my opinions about the job Reloaded is doing. 

[dorobo]

Let's get to the facts, Reloaded's "console" version reeks of mediocrity, and is a low effort, share holder pleasing, quick flip, cash grab. Player drop off will be staggering, but will Reloaded care when they've more than likely made back more than what it cost / spent to get this product out? Time will tell, as it always does.

as it stands it really looks like THis^  but let's hope that  Big things are in store.

Edited by dorobo, 11 July 2016 - 11:30 PM.

[_incitatus]

I'm never gonna forget the week people spent jumping up and down because they believed ... that console hawken is pay to win when you can simply earn all the content as it always has been.

 

 

You're right Crafty.  It isn't THAT much different, but why does it seem so much worse?  Is it my unacknowledged butthurtedness about the removal of the Flak Scout that is clouding my feelings?

[ARCH3TYP3]

You're right Crafty. It isn't THAT much different, but why does it seem so much worse? Is it my unacknowledged butthurtedness about the removal of the Flak Scout that is clouding my feelings?

To be honest, I don't know how truthful or facetious you are being, but i believe there is truth in what you are implying.
Each of us has a preferred play style along with mechs and loadouts that we find a comfortable fit for us and how we play the game.
Taking away our preferred mech, primary weapon, items and internals also takes away much of the allure of Hawken for many of us.
I understand the relaunch is the culmination of many combined forces and circumstances beyond our control and that it is, at this point, the only road foward, but I am still saddened by the loss of this functionality in the short term... especially if feature parity is inevitable. Obviously, we all hope the bugs, balance and community consensus are all addressed before the PC patch is released.

'Cause, I want my Assault, with SMC and Tow, with my preferred items and internals depending on maps and enemy composition...not a G2 Assault, not a CRT with 40 fewer hitpoints, no choice of items or internals, and a screen for a head, that can't be changed. :(