96 replies to this topic

[brackets]

The starting player mech was originally changed from a barebones CR-T Recruit to a fully loaded Assault with several items and internals unlocked to improve the new player experience and to combat the notion of pay to win. In the words of capnjosh,
 

On a related note, back when I was green and free of all Hawken skills, I would notice the loadouts of the mechs killing me. They had stuff that I didn't. And then I noticed the only way for me to get that stuff was to either play a really really long time, or spend cash to get it. Honestly, that's thinly veiled "pay to win", or it's dirty uncle "pay to compete". I don't like that; and it's not even necessary! What can we do though?
 
-capnjosh

Josh correctly points out that vertical progression posed a problem for new players: not only were they facing more skilled opponents who had more experience in game, they weren't even fighting on equal footing - their opponents had a competitive advantage because they had already put forth the time or money to purchase a full loadout of items and internals. His solution was to give new users a full loadout of internals so that they no longer start out at a disadvantage. 
 
This insight has been completely forgotten in the new console patch - the devs have created the same problem capnjosh originally faced, just significantly worse. G2 mechs are strictly improved over their G1 counterparts: they have better stats and their items/internals start out better and can be upgraded further (e.g. the ridiculous "advanced extractor" with 45% faster orb extraction), and the only way to get a G2 mech is to either play a really really long time (first you must fully level a G1 mech and then you need to earn enough HC to purchase and upgrade the G2) or spend cash to get it immediately.

Honestly, that's thinly veiled "pay to win", or it's dirty uncle "pay to compete".

 

-brackets

 

edit: I've fleshed out my thoughts more here.

Edited by brackets, 12 July 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[MomOw]

[americanbrit14]

ya know, i would normally be an ass and thank you for pointing out the obvious, but considering the dev's reaction, it seems like it's not as obvious as it should be

[brackets]

I'm just using capnjosh's own words, because he seems to have forgotten them.

[crockrocket]

I don't think he's even the one pulling the strings.

[Fstroke]

The thing is, if you didn't know what the game was or was trying to be, it really doesn't matter. Most games follow a vert progression model and new players will be none the wiser. It just sucks because we know there is a better way.

[KejiGoto]

Bet Reloaded's scary good playtesters didn't need no fully loaded mech to compete.

 

Seriously though at this point it has become very apparent Reloaded has no intentions of listening to the PC community and using the vast wealth of knowledge this community has to improve Hawken. Heck I remember Josh saying they didn't want to come in and change everything yet here we are.

 

So let's just kick back and watch the consequences of poor decision making stack up on top of Hawken once again until it collapses under all that weight. We've seen it before and we're gonna see it again.

[dorobo]

That's right.. i really forgot about that. But still it's just a small nitpick in the grand scheme of things..

Edited by dorobo, 10 July 2016 - 06:21 AM.

[_incitatus]

That's right.. i really forgot about that. But still it's just a small nitpick in the grand scheme of things..

Feels like more than a small nitpick. It means we were lied to from the beginning OR it was a decision Josh had no control over.

I really hope it was out of Josh's control.

[CrimsonKaim]

So what's the goal here? Noobs being a competitor to a veteran? Noobs will always be stomped by veterans, let alone players who have 100 hours of palytime. And even a fresh one with 0 hours will most likely lose against someone with 10 hours no matter the mech. 

 

Noobs being noobs for a reason, they ain't got the skills. A better mech loadout won't change a thing.

[brackets]

So what's the goal here? Noobs being a competitor to a veteran? Noobs will always be stomped by veterans, let alone players who have 100 hours of palytime. And even a fresh one with 0 hours will most likely lose against someone with 10 hours no matter the mech. 
 
Noobs being noobs for a reason, they ain't got the skills. A better mech loadout won't change a thing.

No - the goal is that players should not be forced to grind at a competitive disadvantage against better players with better mechs before they can unlock those mechs. This problem extends beyond noobs - it extends to any player who intends to unlock G2 mechs without spending cash. Pay to compete is pay to win.

 

edit:
 

you ask about "give me all now and free", it is impossible. pay to complete is not "p2w" actually.

To clarify, by "pay to compete" I mean being forced to either pay money to play the game on a level playing field or play the game at a disadvantage (with worse mechs, items, internals) in order to unlock better mechs. I don't necessarily mean paying money to unlock all content faster; I agree, pay to complete is not p2w and I don't want everything free - I just want a free level playing field. Sorry if the language I used was not clear.

Edited by brackets, 12 July 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[nepacaka]

No - the goal is that players should not be forced to grind at a competitive disadvantage against better players with better mechs before they can unlock those mechs. This problem extends beyond noobs - it extends to any player who intends to unlock G2 mechs without spending cash. Pay to compete is pay to win.

to be honest, i feel curent PC hawken f2p mechanic (and console) as a f2p mostly. the same like in WoT or MWO. in both games you "suffer" to reach top-content. (max your tank in WoT, or max your mech in MWO and buy all modules), but in the end all players are equal by firepower, the difference only how fast you get it. but people, who play, spent own time instead $, grind and increased game online is also needed.
you ask about "give me all now and free", it is impossible. pay to complete is not "p2w" actually.

i personaly call console-hawken as p2w only because it has mech like nif and charge, which you never can't buy with HC. this is p2w, when one player have items/mech which not allowed to second player.

Edited by nepacaka, 10 July 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

The G2 Brawler has 900HP and comes with a repair kit and extractor.  

 

it can be upgraded to an Advanced Repair Kit and Advanced Extractor. The Advanced Extractor does not exist in the PC game, probably due to the fact that 45% faster armour gain is pretty fuzzy bunnyng broken.

 

The Vanguard is in a similar position, with massive upgraded armour and, to be fair, a slightly worse gun.  

 

Niether G1 version of these mechs can hold a candle to their G2 versions, and unlocking them via grinding would take several days of dedicated play on that mech, possibly weeks if done after the initial new account XP/HC boost.

 

Either of these can be bought immediately upon purchasing the founders pack for 900MC, an equivalent of about $8.

 

They are not just examples of vertical progression done horribly wrong, they are encouraging Pay To Win attitudes in the player base.

[dorobo]

and 30 mechs then suddenly turn to far less viable ones.. there's just no point in playing others.

In current pc hawken i can't say im not a bit bored but still i have plenty of mech and weapon combinations to master..

[KejiGoto]

The G2 Brawler has 900HP and comes with a repair kit and extractor.  

 

it can be upgraded to an Advanced Repair Kit and Advanced Extractor. The Advanced Extractor does not exist in the PC game, probably due to the fact that 45% faster armour gain is pretty fuzzy bunnyng broken.

 

The Vanguard is in a similar position, with massive upgraded armour and, to be fair, a slightly worse gun.  

 

Niether G1 version of these mechs can hold a candle to their G2 versions, and unlocking them via grinding would take several days of dedicated play on that mech, possibly weeks if done after the initial new account XP/HC boost.

 

Either of these can be bought immediately upon purchasing the founders pack for 900MC, an equivalent of about $8.

 

They are not just examples of vertical progression done horribly wrong, they are encouraging Pay To Win attitudes in the player base.

 

Well they did make it so you have to get the G1 version of the mech before you can buy the G2 version...

 

Which basically means Reloaded gets a little extra money in their pocket for those looking for that P2W advantage. Or just spend HC to buy the G1 and then real money to buy the G2. Basically they did next to nothing to discourage this and by having Pay-2-Play mechs (even if it is just early access to something that will be released later) only further drives this aspect home.

Heck at least Adhesive was smart enough to keep the Vanguard Cupcake rather weak when it released through the Vanguard Initiative. I remember when I first played the Cupcake I was pretty underwhelmed and for a long time Mini-Flak was terrible because of the drop off rate and how quickly it overheated, SMC wasn't great because sustained hadn't been buffed, and Vulcan's spin up time meant the Cupcake was a sitting duck for most engagements that revolved around burst damage to win.

And since Hawken is now live on two new platforms I doubt we're gonna see the G1 and G2 system change. Not unless Reloaded thinks players are gonna wait around for another year while they try to fix everything.

[JeffMagnum]

The G2 Brawler has 900HP and comes with a repair kit and extractor.

it can be upgraded to an Advanced Repair Kit and Advanced Extractor. The Advanced Extractor does not exist in the PC game, probably due to the fact that 45% faster armour gain is pretty fuzzy bunnyng broken.

The Vanguard is in a similar position, with massive upgraded armour and, to be fair, a slightly worse gun.

Niether G1 version of these mechs can hold a candle to their G2 versions, and unlocking them via grinding would take several days of dedicated play on that mech, possibly weeks if done after the initial new account XP/HC boost.

Either of these can be bought immediately upon purchasing the founders pack for 900MC, an equivalent of about $8.

They are not just examples of vertical progression done horribly wrong, they are encouraging Pay To Win attitudes in the player base.

Uhhh... 45% faster gain combined with Advanced Repair Kit on a better Brawler? What the fuzzy bunny? So they buffed two of the strongest things in the current PC build and called it good? lmao

[DieselCat]

I don't think he's even the one pulling the strings.

 

505 Games & SONY ...maybe 

[ARCH3TYP3]

Uhhh... 45% faster gain combined with Advanced Repair Kit on a better Brawler? What the fuzzy bunny? So they buffed two of the strongest things in the current PC build and called it good? lmao

 

IIRC, the console Brawler's dodge cooldown has been increased. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 

It seems like they designed the "NEW" Brawler to be more of a camping tank; More demonstration of their "dedicated mech role" concept. I have mixed feelings about this.

 

At least the Brawler still exists. On the other hand, I am saddened to say my beloved Assault is gone, in favor of renaming its G2 variant in its stead. This means current PC Assault mains need to either drop down to the inferior, more fragile CRT, or move on to maining a new and different mech altogether.

 

For me, Hawken IS the Assault, much as for many of my brethren here who have thousands of hours maining their mech of choice.

 

There is some talk of customizations returning to the game at some point, but no specifics on what "customizations" actually includes. (Primary weapons? Items? Internals? Cosmetics?) It has not been expressly stated.

 

Keep playing and keep hope alive.

Edited by ARCH3TYP3, 10 July 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[BlackWarGreymon]

 

 

Keep playing and keep hope alive.

 

[nepacaka]

At least the Brawler still exists. On the other hand, I am saddened to say my beloved Assault is gone, in favor of renaming its G2 variant in its stead. This means current PC Assault mains need to either drop down to the inferior, more fragile CRT, or move on to maining a new and different mech altogether.

 

old assault just got a nerf, now it called crt. and it have average stats like it always should have. and new g2-assault have stats from current g2-assault. i.e., they just nerf current assault :D

the same with brawler. it probably one of the imba mech at 1vs1, an it can be very strong. but actually, brawler are not imba in 6vs6 fight. 

most of problem here - we still don't have 2A 2B 2C conception (i mean, they make mech role, but not restrict players to pick 6 damagers or 6 tanks, i feel it little broken). and it still can be a 4-5 C-class at Origin, or 4 rocketeers at lost-eco, etc.
but! one brawler with 900 hp in every team - it is normally balanced for this.

Edited by nepacaka, 10 July 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[I2DI]

And now we will witness the "thread lock" in it's natural habitat...(I'm too lazy to extend the joke.) Oh crap, I think it saw us!

 

Enough was said already, unless Hawken devs will pull their stuff together and fast or Hawken is dead. Again.

 

EDIT: On the good side, I got 100 posts, yay!

Edited by I2DI, 10 July 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

The starting player mech was originally changed from a barebones CR-T Recruit to a fully loaded Assault with several items and internals unlocked to improve the new player experience and to combat the notion of pay to win....

Josh correctly points out that vertical progression posed a problem for new players: not only were they facing more skilled opponents who had more experience in game, they weren't even fighting on equal footing - their opponents had a competitive advantage because they had already put forth the time or money to purchase a full loadout of items and internals. His solution was to give new users a full loadout of internals so that they no longer start out at a disadvantage. 
 
This insight has been completely forgotten in the new console patch - the devs have created the same problem capnjosh originally faced, just significantly worse. G2 mechs are strictly improved over their G1 counterparts...

Honestly, that's thinly veiled "pay to win", or it's dirty uncle "pay to compete".

 

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 10 July 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[nepacaka]

Hawken is dead. Again.

 

u kan't kill it twice!

[Fstroke]

u kan't kill it twice!

What is dead may never die

[DieselCat]

Night of the Living Fred 

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

What is dead may never die

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

[nepacaka]

 

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

 

if ha?ken iz ded, baba-ji can ressurect it with black-magic solution. just call...

Edited by nepacaka, 10 July 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[harmless_kittens]

So it's a free game that's pay to win (allegedly).  How is this bad for the game if it keeps it alive?  This successful business model has been repeated many times over (although usually in "apps").  I'm not saying I like it, but if its true I definitely can't fault them for it.  They're in this business to make money, NOT to make 300 PC players sing their praises.

[_incitatus]

So it's a free game that's pay to win (allegedly). How is this bad for the game if it keeps it alive? This successful business model has been repeated many times over (although usually in "apps"). I'm not saying I like it, but if its true I definitely can't fault them for it. They're in this business to make money, NOT to make 300 PC players sing their praises.

It's a cash grab. A cash grab that I hope was mandated from powers that control the devs.

When you gain a distinct advantage (G2 mechs) from spending money, it ruins competition. It's no longer just about how skilled you are at the game, it's also about spending money and/or a large amount of time just to be playing on a level field.

There are ways to monetize that are not pay to win. If G2 mechs were different, and not simply better versions of G1 mechs, it wouldn't reek as badly.

Take Overwatch for example (flame away at my casualness). All you can buy are loot crates which contain purely cosmetic items. All characters are unlocked from the start. All new characters are free upon release to everyone. I don't have to play any amount of time to acquire or unlock anything just to play on a level field.

I've spent money on crates. I haven't spent money on Hawken in a long time, because there's nothing left for me to buy. I was willing to shell out $30-$40 per month on a private server. I would buy any new cosmetic that was released. But these things have not been made available for me to buy. Instead they roll out p2w vertical progression garbage.

I will not spend a dime on Howken as it currently sits on console.

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

So it's a free game that's pay to win (allegedly).

 

It has been pretty conclusively demonstrated that it is pay to win. If you can't be bothered to read the facts laid out above and in other threads, please don't try to contribute to the discussion.

 

That (allegedly) smack of the language of poor, unfortunate defense lawyers trying to get their client off. 

 

But to put it in a language that you can understand, how would you feel if next week a bunch of players showed up in mechs that made them superior in all aspects to you and proceeded to win every match? I wonder where then would be your protests about stomps.  

 

They had a viable monetary vector: new content. Dozens of other games survive on skins, maps and a community market. There's a reason pay to win is reviled and that's because it's a lazy, ineffectual and ultimately counterproductive to good business. Please see capnjosh's initial statements quoted at the top of the thread.

[DallasCreeper]

Take Overwatch for example (flame away at my casualness). All you can buy are loot crates which contain purely cosmetic items. All characters are unlocked from the start. All new characters are free upon release to everyone. I don't have to play any amount of time to acquire or unlock anything just to play on a level field.

Team Fortress 2?

[Nightfirebolt]

So it's a free game that's pay to win (allegedly).  How is this bad for the game if it keeps it alive?

 

In point form:

 

It is bad because the game will no longer be fun.

 

If it's no longer fun, it won't retain players in the long-term.

 

If it doesn't retain players in the long-term, it will NOT keep Hawken alive.

[_incitatus]

Team Fortress 2?

I've only played TF3 (Overwatch).

[harmless_kittens]

It has been pretty conclusively demonstrated that it is pay to win. If you can't be bothered to read the facts laid out above and in other threads, please don't try to contribute to the discussion.

 

That (allegedly) smack of the language of poor, unfortunate defense lawyers trying to get their client off. 

 

But to put it in a language that you can understand, how would you feel if next week a bunch of players showed up in mechs that made them superior in all aspects to you and proceeded to win every match? I wonder where then would be your protests about stomps.  

 

They had a viable monetary vector: new content. Dozens of other games survive on skins, maps and a community market. There's a reason pay to win is reviled and that's because it's a lazy, ineffectual and ultimately counterproductive to good business. Please see capnjosh's initial statements quoted at the top of the thread.

Wow dude, chill.  I don't have those consoles, and I haven't watched any videos, so I'm only going on what other people have said.  But thanks for reminding me why Kittens isn't playing anymore :)

 

And those systems are "reviled" as you say only by the people who hate those systems and want more free stuff.  People willing to pay to win don't mind, and there are plenty of those people.  Now if you're willing to pay $50 for a boxed copy of Hawken with everything unlocked at level 1, then that's different.  But if you expect that the previous model of a free game and cosmetic changes only for cash is going to make them prosperous, then I humbly disagree.

 

And "Fun" is completely relative.  I totally get that you and I might not find it fun, but I'll bet the one spending the money finds it fun.

Edited by harmless_kittens, 10 July 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

 

And those systems are "reviled" as you say only by the people who hate those systems and want more free stuff.  People willing to pay to win don't mind, and there are plenty of those people.  Now if you're willing to pay $50 for a boxed copy of Hawken with everything unlocked at level 1, then that's different.  But if you expect that the previous model of a free game and cosmetic changes only for cash is going to make them prosperous, then I humbly disagree.

 

Plenty of successful games have made oodles of money doing just that. The problem is that Hawken never had enough cosmetics to properly make the sales it needed because the GAME WAS NEVER FINISHED.

 

Hawken's problem was never its pay model, nor its lack of vertical progression; it was the fact that Adhesive squandered its money and ended up abandoning the project altogether. Therefore, there was never enough worthwhile purchaseable content to begin with.

 

For example: Aside from the Civ, Neif, and Hon chassis, the only cosmetic options available are the default skins from other mechs, which isn't very interesting. If they gave us ten, twenty, fifty or a hundred other cosmetic options to choose from, surely they'll see the money rolling in from veterans and new players alike. It's not just about chassis options either; there also aren't enough paints, taunts, repair drones, thrusters, or cockpit options.

 

Seriously. All Hawken needed was more of what was already there, not a new game structure, but that's the path Reloaded has decided to take, and I promise you it will not benefit Hawken in the long run.

 

Why? Because pay-to-win is sleazy. And people are smart enough to know that. They also don't appreciate being manipulated.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 11 July 2016 - 12:27 AM.

[6ixxer]

No - the goal is that players should not be forced to grind at a competitive disadvantage against better players with better mechs before they can unlock those mechs. This problem extends beyond noobs - it extends to any player who intends to unlock G2 mechs without spending cash. Pay to compete is pay to win.

Whose goal? Josh also asked "what can we do though?"
As in, who has a better plan that also allows the company to collect income?

The words 'necessary evil' seem apt.
"what can we do though?"

Its pay to be fuzzy bunny impatient.
The grind isn't bad, the players are just selfish lazy fuzzy bunnys.
"what can we do though?"

I bought Nemesis on day 1 of Steam. >>I was fuzzy bunny impatient<<
But I'm not complaining that I had to pay. I had more cash than time.
Did it make me win? No.
Did it make me competitive? No.
Those took quite a while of game time.
In fact it slowed me in learning the game properly. Jack of all, master of none.
"what can we do though?"

So, ideas? ...Cos Josh asked
Give new players a mech voucher and 2 item vouchers for completing a decent tutorial?
Give new players item an item voucher after 5 matches and another after a further 5?
Allow a mech/item refund system? If you picked a bad mech for your playstyle, trade it for something else, with time or rank limit? (Ok, this would be much more difficult to implement).

Has the insight been forgotten? Probably not.
"what can we do though?"

[_incitatus]

 

And those systems are "reviled" as you say only by the people who hate those systems and want more free stuff.  People willing to pay to win don't mind, and there are plenty of those people.  Now if you're willing to pay $50 for a boxed copy of Hawken with everything unlocked at level 1, then that's different.  But if you expect that the previous model of a free game and cosmetic changes only for cash is going to make them prosperous, then I humbly disagree.

 

And "Fun" is completely relative.  I totally get that you and I might not find it fun, but I'll bet the one spending the money finds it fun.

 

Only reviled by the people that want free stuff?  No.  Wrong.  People willing to pay DO mind.  Case in point?  Me and my wallet.

 

I am willing to pay, and have paid in the past.  I have every paint, drone, and thruster.  On some of my mechs, I have unlocked every chassis, arm, leg, and foot available and have unlocked at least one body part for every one of my mechs.  They stopped releasing things for me to spend money on or I would keep spending.

Edited by _incitatus, 11 July 2016 - 07:24 AM.

[PoopSlinger]

You still start with assault rifle and tow.  FOR FREE

[StubbornPuppet]

I can tell you, with 100% confidence, that if I had originally downloaded and tried Hawken as it is on consoles right now, it would have taken me about 6 hours (maybe less) to identify it as a Pay2Win� game and uninstalled it.  Period.

 

I will NOT play Pay2Win games.  They are absolutely disgusting - as are the people who are actually willing to pay real money to have a competitive advantage.

 

How much do we hate people who buy cheats and hacks so that they can have a competitive advantage?  More than anything, right?

 

A company that puts out a game that specifically includes an option to pay real money to get an advantage IS building in the option to buy a cheat/hack.  And this is exactly the game that consoles now have - and is coming to PC.

 

The moment the PC version gets updated to this Pay2Cheat model is the moment I uninstall and never look back.

 

,.l..

[Brother3J]

This game has to make them some money.  Yes they are using a very light Pay to win model.  If it doesn't make them the money the're looking for they will have to rethink their strategy.  I don't like the weapons reassignments at all.  There is no reason they can't leave the core of the PC build the way it is and just fix bugs/maps and add an anti-cheat.  There doesn't need to be parity between consoles and PC.  Leave PC Hawken for competitive crowd and Console Hawken for the casuals.