119 replies to this topic

[Superkamikazee]

Destrutoid Review: 4.5/10 Below Average

Hawken has never been a terrible game, but it has never made a case for itself as anything more either. This console version puts up even less of a fight. If you're broke and bored this summer and looking for something to sink some hours into on console could be a reasonable pastime. But there is no getting around the fact that this is the worst way to play an already mediocre game.

https://www.destruct...en-376749.phtml

[Silverfire]

I'm pretty sure Hawken had better reviews than this right after Ascension.

[GGGanjaMan]

They should have learnt from their existing playerbase on the pc. I mean... did they even consider why the Steam release failed initially... why it bled so many new players right away due to p2w perceptions. It's like they took those prior mistakes, and instead of learning from them or fixing any of it, they only exacerbated the problem with even more locked content and even more grinding for "new" G2 mechs. I mean they could have easily avoided gripes like this from that review linked above:

 

 

Also ridiculously antiquated is the free-to-play monetization scheme. In an era of MOBAs and other free-to-play games settling into reasonable, cosmetic-based methods of separating fans from their dollars, Hawken is a grim swerve back to the early days of hellacious grinding and barely disguised store-bought advantages.

Progression in Hawken is shackled to an almost unbearably slow pace by the combined efforts of a currency grind, gated purchases, XP tiers, and upgrades. All presented with little explanation and no apologies. Seriously, to figure out exactly what you need to do to get the mech you want and compete at a fair level you have to basically draw it out on a whiteboard. I tried to, but got distracted/depressed halfway through and just made a doodle of me hanging myself.

Hawken runs on two separate currencies, Hawken credits (HC) which you earn while playing, and Meteor credits (MC) which you buy with real money. While new players start with a pad of HC to get them rolling, the realities of the grind set in pretty quick. HC accrues slowly and you're going to need a lot of them due to the asinine way mechs are gated.

You can't just purchase the mech you want in Hawken, you have to have to necessary prerequisite mechs in your garage first. This is an obvious ploy to increase the amount of grind necessary to find the mech that suits your playstyle the best that is further compounded by hiding the more interesting mechs behind several rows of fairly similar robots.

If you're the type who likes to play the big slow hitter in a multiplayer game and want to buy one of the impressive Heavy mechs, you have some work ahead of you. The Heavy mechs are generally hidden off to the sides of the confusing as fuzzy bunny �mech-web,� meaning you not only have to buy SEVERAL different machines just to gain the privilege of buying the mech you actually want. Settle in.

Of course, all of this can be circumvented by throwing cash at the game. You can purchase whatever you want with the real-money MC. Personal tolerances for �pay-not-to-grind� systems are going to differ, but Hawken's take on the concept seems particularly crass.

The grind doesn't end there though. There are also item upgrades to purchase (again, either with increasingly prohibitive amounts of HC or by juicing the game with some cash). In earlier iterations, these upgrades were presented as options - any mech could buy any upgrade, but had limited space to slot them, meaning you had to make trade-offs. These days, upgrades are hard-locked to each chassis, taking away the customization element and basically making it a sub-grind to get your machine up and running at its best.

But it doesn't end there, either! You also have �G2� versions of the same goddamn robots to unlock with XP ranks and then buy again! These mechs then have their own versions of the same items which can be upgraded with even better versions that confer a real battleground advantage.

Higher level item upgrades can be used multiple times per life, have a greater effect, and generally slant things in the users favor. It's pay-to-win obfuscated. Technically, it's players who have played longer that have the advantage, but when that grind is ridiculously long and can be greatly reduced with money, that distinction becomes pretty damn blurry.

Are you exhausted yet? I am.

 

[DemitronPrime]

http://www.forbes.co...s/#202c79cf16f1

 

Update 6/21/13

 

not really any better ^^

 

http://www.metacriti...xbox-one/hawken

 

THOUGH!!! I would like to add...

By the end of the review I could tasty the SALTY EX PC Player taste in my mouth...

Edited by -TDM- Demitron-Prime, 24 July 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

They should have learnt from their existing playerbase on the pc. I mean... did they even consider why the Steam release failed initially... why it bled so many new players right away due to p2w perceptions. It's like they took those prior mistakes, and instead of learning from them or fixing any of it, they only exacerbated the problem with even more locked content and even more grinding for "new" G2 mechs. I mean they could have easily avoided gripes like this from that review linked above:

 

Jeez. It is way worse than I thought. :/

[DieselCat]

THis guy was thrashing on the PC version long before it came out on  the consoles.

[Hyginos]

In today's episode of "things that didn't surprise anyone who was paying attention": Something that was entirely preventable and many people saw coming!

Edited by Hyginos, 24 July 2016 - 08:15 PM.

[CraftyDus]

I don't care what this guy thinks about hawken.
Let him go back to evervescing with concern that maybe everyone's "being too hard on Kanye"

http://acculturated....-hard-on-kanye/

[Nept]

I don't care what this guy thinks about hawken.
Let him go back to [effervescing] with concern that maybe everyone's "being too hard on Kanye"

http://acculturated....-hard-on-kanye/

 

I read through the Hawken review quickly.  Can't say I disagreed with his assessment - or at least not with much of it, anyway.  Rather than address pay2win concerns (which, in reality, were negligible on PC Hawken), 505/Reloaded seem to have gone the opposite route.  Their clumsy mech "web", their item/internal revamp, and their G2 variants are blatant grind-prolonging efforts which shunt players toward MC purchases - or away from the game. 

[ATX22]

WTF[b] is this mech-web garbage?  This is Hawken, not World of Tanks.

Edited by ATX22, 24 July 2016 - 08:52 PM.

[ArchMech]

I don't care what this guy thinks about hawken.
Let him go back to evervescing with concern that maybe everyone's "being too hard on Kanye"

http://acculturated....-hard-on-kanye/

not sure if 2 different people or not ones last name is rowan and the other rowen but both identical first names which is either coincidental or?

[nepacaka]

i always called "game critics" as "nubs", because they play in game 5 min and write some bullsh!t in reviews. but this is first time when they actually right, and this is the honest rewiev. it is sad.

Edited by nepacaka, 24 July 2016 - 10:14 PM.

[KarlSchlag]

Nic Rowen? Errr..... who?

 

He sure is right about the progression and the silence thingy. But this guy has more hours spent writing this than playing the game. 

[dorobo]

How weird is that Hawken with all it's bugs was the most fun at the start of it's existence. This dude clearly hates it but he has many excuses now. I was a proponent of a faster hawken at one point but devs never went the whole way and stayed at this awkward middle-ground.

 

 

edit: im not a UI expert but that web is such a trash

Edited by dorobo, 24 July 2016 - 11:05 PM.

[nepacaka]

edit: im not a UI expert but that web is such a trash

im not UI expert but that trash is not UI, it is web.

[dorobo]

im not UI expert but that trash is not UI, it is web.

i hope it's functional at least?! or there's a spider comin out at some point? maybe when a purchase is made :)

 

In information technology, the user interface (UI) is everything designed into an information device with which a human being may interact -- including display screen, keyboard, mouse, light pen, the appearance of a desktop, illuminated characters, help messages, and how an application program or a Web site invites interaction and responds to it.

 

edit: btw my problem with it is solely visual for now :)

Edited by dorobo, 25 July 2016 - 05:00 AM.

[CraftyDus]

We are NOT being too hard on Kanye ffs.

 

 

 

I read through the Hawken review quickly.  Can't say I disagreed with his assessment - or at least not with much of it, anyway.  Rather than address pay2win concerns (which, in reality, were negligible on PC Hawken), 505/Reloaded seem to have gone the opposite route.  Their clumsy mech "web", their item/internal revamp, and their G2 variants are blatant grind-prolonging efforts which shunt players toward MC purchases - or away from the game. 

 

You can view the mech web as a grid (it's the giant green button on the top left).

 

And if you just woke up in 2016 and realized Hawken has a free 2 play set up , you haven't been paying attention.

You people live for this progression in your game nonsense.

 

I just started playing the ps4 last night and inside of one session I have a reaper, a zerker, and the crt you start with.

My first hand experience is that it isn't any more grindy than regular Hawken.

It has been my observation that g2's and the charge aren't significantly more powerful than the stats imply.

Edited by CraftyDus, 25 July 2016 - 03:10 AM.

[Hyginos]

I just started playing the ps4 last night and inside of one session I have a reaper, a zerker, and the crt you start with.

My first hand experience is that it isn't any more grindy than regular Hawken.

It has been my observation that g2's and the charge aren't significantly more powerful than the stats imply.

 

The front-loaded HC will get you 3-4 mechs real fast for sure, but it doesn't lessen the grind for G2s.

 

I'm more curious on the number of mechs and the play time you have on your just-about-lvl-30 xbox account.

[CraftyDus]

The front-loaded HC will get you 3-4 mechs real fast for sure, but it doesn't lessen the grind for G2s.

 

I'm more curious on the number of mechs and the play time you have on your just-about-lvl-30 xbox account.

 

 

I spent hard on my xbox dudes.

I bought the founder's pack and xbox subscription and then put some fashion money on it.

 

G2's aren't that different or impactful seeming that you even need them to edge out a G1 straight up.

I've found the difference hardly neglible. Especially coming from a naked pubber pov.

It's an illusion.

 

I came up during tuning points and had to eat crap sandwiches till I got my last 5 tuning points at level 30.

That was some bs, and there was no where near the rancor as this now.

 

Our community post-steam were coming out of the woodwork at the new steampiles crying p2w and correcting them that it was p2notgrind.

I didn't get involved.

I'm no connisseur (correct my spelling, pedants) of free to play games or games where you have to level to get at weapons and game mechanics.

So maybe it's not fair of me to say it's all the same to me.

But ITS ALL THE SAME TO ME

 

It splitting hairs to me to say that this new scenario is so wildy different.

In actuality it runs like they just added more stuff to grind for.

And it still plays the same.

 

Here's Bo doing Kanye, ya bunch of savages

 

[Hyginos]

I spent hard on my xbox dudes.

 

So you skipped the grind, but you expect us to consider your opinion on it anyway?

[Superkamikazee]

Like I've been saying, this is a Reloaded zero effort, cash grab. It's a joke. 

[nepacaka]

anyone can answer short question? can you buy any mech from start on console? (i think no, due the mech-web, but maybe i'm wrong)
i mean, if i have 20k HC, can i just buy a brawler, or i need buy assault first, than buy a brawler?

if you can buy anything mech you want from start, f2p probably will be OK, nothing bad here.

to be honest, current console system actually the same with current PC. on console you upgrade item, on PC you just buy it. i mean, if compare new player/old player advantages it is the same. but, Nief/charge actually make it pay-2-win, despite is OP or no. just other players don't get it, it is a lil not fair. and I'am 74% sure, those mech like nief and charge it is only beginning. i think we see some more new mechs (probably OP or unbalanced mechs :P) whichs will be available only for MC or other way and can't be available for HC.

Edited by nepacaka, 25 July 2016 - 05:54 AM.

[I2DI]

Hopefully the people behind that buisness model will at the least listen to game critics... But who does that anyway when you can just squeze more money out of people and since it works why change anything? These guys are not Turtle Rock, they won't "revive" the game. Instead they currently just dug out the corpse and then made the hole in the ground bigger, so the sound of the drop becomes more impressive.

 

This was especialy cynical of me, but I think it was well-deserved. *Grumpyface*

 

P.S.: I wrote this just to amaze myself, you won't find anything new here.

[dorobo]

[Analysis]

G2's aren't that different or impactful seeming that you even need them to edge out a G1 straight up.

I've found the difference hardly neglible. Especially coming from a naked pubber pov.

It's an illusion.

 

 

Its true that G2s aren't significantly better than G1s, but the difference will be noticeable when you face an opponent of similar skill(or better). In many cases the G2s have more health compared the G1s. So If all shots are hit the G1 will die first compared to the G2s due to the health variations. For the scout(no health difference) the G2 makes the boost faster and reduces the dodge cool down. Also as others have pointed out you can get 2 charges on items in G2s while you can only use 1 charge on G1s. It's true that G2s aren't a new mech in terms of power, but they will give you an edge if your opponent isn't using one.

[CraftyDus]

So you skipped the grind, but you expect us to consider your opinion on it anyway?

 

 

I didn't ask you for anything.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I didn't ask you for anything.

 

"Looks like someone made an oopsie with their semantics, time to address that instead of his point!"

[BlackWarGreymon]

Stop arguing.

 

Anyway, the mech web is awful and they sure ass heck better not bring that over to the PC build or... bad things will happen. Let people grind for or buy whatever mech they want, and once they have it fully levelled, they can unlock ( and buy with HC or MC )  the G2 version.

 

Exactly how it is done in the PC version already.

 

 

All the mech web does is alienate the majority of players as they get fed up with not being able to play their mechs of choice sooner- the small number of people willing to part with real cash will not be enough to sustain the game, which is why Adhesive failed the first time around; too much grinding, not enough new content or game modes, too many bugs and exploits that were ignored. 

 

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

[crockrocket]

Huh, it's almost like they didn't consider player retention.... 

[nepacaka]

Its true that G2s aren't significantly better than G1s

 

so, if they aren't significally better, why not just make G1 and G2 slightly different, allow G1 mechs MK3 upgrade, and got 30 mech, instead 15 (even if these 30 will be very similar, just slightly tuning version) ??
 

Exactly how it is done in the PC version already.

 

or just return old ascention system, when you can buy what you want or grind all mech free but long time.
it is also more good, cuz when people start to play they can easily buy an any first mech instead TV, and got fully random team in matches fast. i see some stream about console hawken, and 90% low tier matches (when player try a game) looks like "6 assaults vs 6 assaults". it is absolutely stupid and can't help see a truly hawken and how it can be. meh...it is just ultra-bored-babaji matches. 

 

Edited by nepacaka, 25 July 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

If one could put aside the obvious issues for a moment like how poorly the game runs on console, when it ran well on a modest pc, or the insulting progression and business model, let's get into something I've been saying for YEARS, YEARS.
 

The mechs are too agile and anemic to appeal to mech fans coming from the school of giant walking tanks, and too cumbersome to invite fans of style aerial acrobatics. The gameplay on tap is not terrible, but does nothing to distinguish itself from any other generic shooter. If this all felt dated back in 2012, it feels positively antiquated now.

I've always been staunchly against the nonsensical #increasethespeeds #aircompressor #skillceiling campaigns from the beginning, and here we are, here we are indeed. Hawken is a game for no one at its core due to some naive devs at ADH listening to the echo chamber way back when. Now instead of making changes to fix some of these obvious issues, Reloaded goes and nukes the games future with a horrendous business model on top of everything already wrong with the game.

[Hyginos]

I've always been staunchly against the nonsensical #increasethespeeds #aircompressor #skillceiling campaigns from the beginning, and here we are, here we are indeed. Hawken is a game for no one at its core due to some naive devs at ADH listening to the echo chamber way back when. Now instead of making changes to fix some of these obvious issues, Reloaded goes and nukes the games future with a horrendous business model on top of everything already wrong with the game.

 

In all fairness increasing the speeds and air compressor advocacy and what not was always pushing the gundam/mecha angle in lieu of the mechwarrior angle and  perhaps could "invite fans of style areal acrobatics".

 

It would benefit by being faster or slower, but it looks like it will just get more generic.

Edited by Hyginos, 25 July 2016 - 10:54 AM.

[BlackWarGreymon]

The fast pace is what made Hawken stand out amongst generic 'big, slow, stompy' mech games- our mechs aren't as big as sky scrapers or multi story buildings, they are smaller and more agile, yet still 'big enough' to take some hits; most people were unhappy when Adhesive nerfed the speed and cut the health pool in half, which says something I'm sure.

 

Nowadays though it can't cut it in the ocean of generic FPS shooters ( which is what the game feels like ), and doesn't have the polished look or feel of a dedicated large-mech game. The graphics are dated, and I never, never felt the scale of the mechs since the maps have terrible scenery design- you feel like a person walking down an alley instead of a house sized mech walking between buildings ( this is something you really feel on Frontline ), not to mention the stupidly steep and unrealistic ramps and roads, tin-foil trucks littering most maps, and the generic/random blocky mega structures that have no form to them and don't make you feel any sense of scale.

 

It's all just generic and bland feeling- we need new maps that really look like they are designed around humans so that the mechs feel as big as they are; the maps all seemed to be designed for the mechs which was the mistake from the start- and what killed the realistic feel that you are piloting a mech around mainly urban, human, environments. 

 

Meh, we'll still keep playing though- blind faith that things will improve, I guess...

[Superkamikazee]

In all fairness increasing the speeds and air compressor advocacy and what not was always pushing the gundam/mecha angle in lieu of the mechwarrior angle and  perhaps could "invite fans of style areal acrobatics".
 
It would benefit by being faster or slower, but it looks like it will just get more generic.

Perhaps.

 

I'm still of the opinion that making the gameplay faster wouldn't / didn't improve upon anything that initially garnered Hawken attention from the media and players alike back in 2012. 

[Nept]

Perhaps.

 

I'm still of the opinion that making the gameplay faster wouldn't / didn't improve upon anything that initially garnered Hawken attention from the media and players alike back in 2012. 

 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but the section you quoted doesn't claim that the game is too fast. Instead, it's claiming that Hawken inhabits a middle ground which satisfies neither camp.

 

The mechs are too agile and anemic to appeal to mech fans coming from the school of giant walking tanks, and too cumbersome to invite fans of style aerial acrobatics.

 

Your interpretation of that section ("I've always been staunchly against the nonsensical #increasethespeeds #aircompressor #skillceiling campaigns from the beginning, and here we are, here we are indeed") is an excellent example of confirmation bias.  Rather than read for content, you skimmed for phrases which supported your perspective; ironically, you created an echo chamber for yourself.

 

Confirmation bias aside, that section was one of the few with which I took issue.  Hawken is objectively not a generic shooter.  Off the top of my head, Hawken differentiates itself through the following:

 

Movement

• Dodging
• Boosting
• Hovering
• Air Compressor (dodging in midair)
• Acceleration (from "walking" to "running")

Weapons

• Dual Weapons (typically weapons with different mechanics)
• Remote Detonation (and Hawken's ensuing emphasis on zoning/area control)
• EOC Repeater
• Incinerator's Mechanics
• Grenadier's Rev-GL
• Sharpshooter's Sabot (mastering its scoped/unscoped accuracy over various ranges)
• Technician's Redox (and its debuff ability)
• Predator's Breacher
• Weapon/Role Interplay (swapping weapons on certain mechs dramatically changes their role - think Flak/Hawkins Brawler)

Mechs

• Classes and Abilities
• Higher TTK (than most shooters - go watch gameplay from "generic" shooters)
• Turnrate Cap
• Radar and Scrambling Systems
• Items (some of which - like the spinning top EMP and ISM Disruptor delivery systems - are quite unique)
• Weapon, item, and internal customization (almost entirely removed from the console version)

That isn't to say that each element is unique to Hawken - or that they're perfectly balanced, of course - but in combination, they form a very unique game.  Broadly speaking, the movement, weapons, mechs, and ttk set Hawken apart from anything I've played prior - and I've played many shooters.  Anyone using the "generic" descriptor hasn't put much time into its systems (i.e., they waddled around in a Fred for a few hours) or is stubbornly clinging to the term as an insult.

 

*Edit* Re. TTK, here's some footage from the last CoD.  I'd argue that neither the latest CoD nor its predecessor (Advanced Warfare) qualify as "generic shooters" given their robust movement options and gameplay mechanics.  Their TTK, however, has remained unchanged from earlier, more generic iterations.

 

 

And here's the TTK in an arena shooter (UT2k4).  Objectively longer than what you'd experience in generic FPS', but objectively shorter than what we have in Hawken.

 

Edited by Nept, 25 July 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[Superkamikazee]

It's not a bias, it's an opinion, and the only confirmation is the fact the review agrees with me regarding speed. ADH could never commit to what they wanted Hawken to be. Initially Hawken was what it was, and it was met with enough success to receive awards at E3. Instead of focusing on improving what was already there the core changes began, and ultimately movement was changed to worsen the experience. Maybe it wasn't enough of a change, who knows. My point is, movement disnt need tampering with. What Hawken needed was content, balance, and a clear business model, F2P.

You can take objection with whatever you please, but the fact remains, Hawken is generic no matter what your opinion is, or how long of a list you post. If it wasn't, it would have been even a moderate success, as opposed to it being the monumental failing that it was and is today.

And comparing COD to Hawken only proves that you've failed to even recognize what mediocrity is. COD titles have now begun to lose sales to the point Activision isn't even posting them. The public is moving on.

Edited by Superkamikazee, 25 July 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[Nept]

It's not a bias, it's an opinion.

 

Right, I said you're entitled to your opinion.  However, I also demonstrated that you supported your opinion through confirmation bias.

 

You can take objection with whatever you please, but the fact remains, Hawken is generic no matter what your opinion is, or how long of a list you post. If it wasn't, it would have been even a moderate success, as opposed to it being the monumental failing that it was and is today.

 

Not only have you failed to refute my argument, but you're stating your (incorrect) opinion as fact.  As for non-generic automatically producing success, well, no.  Grandpa Crafty has something to say about that: 

 

[14:27] <Crafty> kamikaze

[14:27] <Crafty> just no

[14:28] <Crafty> thats one turn it would have done well to avoid

[14:29] <Crafty> hes equating originality with success

[14:29] <Crafty> thats super flawed

[14:29] <Crafty> in my life Ive sen originality in art and music die on hills all over to the delight of generic successes

[14:30] <Crafty> thats the way of mass consumption

[14:31] <Crafty> orginilaity needs patrons who protect it from the genericizing effect of wider public appetites

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls

[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

See also: https://community.pl...on-development/

 

And comparing COD to Hawken only proves that you've failed to even recognize what mediocrity is. COD titles have now begun to lose sales to the point Activision isn't even posting them. The public is moving on.

 

You've missed the point of my comparison.  I'm comparing Hawken's (long) ttk to what you'd find in "generic shooters".

Edited by Nept, 25 July 2016 - 01:37 PM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls

[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

I've been trying to explain how I feel about Hawken for years, and all this time Crafty put it best.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 25 July 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Flifang]

This game needs some sort of incentive to keep playing. The novelty wears off very quickly if you aren't somebody like me who prefers to play 1-3 games max until I've done absolutely everything.

 

I read the playstation review and was surprised at the focus towards the way it looks being outdated, and then I introduced one of my housemates to the game and he thought it was really cool, but it just looked very old. I honestly didn't know aesthetics and game engine were cared about this much even when a game like hawken looks pretty amazing still for how old it is.

 

Hawken needs a hook, but I'm not entirely sure how easily that can be achieved without making an entirely new game. I desperately want this game to be a huge hit, but if I'm honest with my inner wanna-be hipster I probably would rather be the person among my friend group that plays "that one game."

[Flifang]

Its true that G2s aren't significantly better than G1s, but the difference will be noticeable when you face an opponent of similar skill(or better). In many cases the G2s have more health compared the G1s. So If all shots are hit the G1 will die first compared to the G2s due to the health variations. For the scout(no health difference) the G2 makes the boost faster and reduces the dodge cool down. Also as others have pointed out you can get 2 charges on items in G2s while you can only use 1 charge on G1s. It's true that G2s aren't a new mech in terms of power, but they will give you an edge if your opponent isn't using one.

Health: Your extra 30-100 health won't save you from a well shot secondary or 1 whole second under sustain fire.

Speed: Can't say anything definite here, but I will say there will be a point where speed becomes difficult to use to its full potential anyway. (Oh so you're fast? Boosting in a straight line won't save you from anything.)

Dodge cooldown: Dodging becomes second nature pretty easily when all mechs in a weight class share the same dodge cool down, but if you get careless or play a different mech you will screw those dodges up I guarantee you. Plus, in the case of the scout; it already has absolutely horrific fuel regen and tank size, and dodging halts all fuel regen while the animation takes place (Unless they changed that) so after breaking an opponent's turn cap you might not have enough fuel to get away.

 

Any and all advantages in hawken are quickly and easily nullified with a first shot, better cover, coordination, or a good dodge. Sure, comparing speeds or dps is something you can do to discuss balance but this isn't chess. These players aren't going to just sit there and take a beating to either win a stationary dps race, or try to outmaneuver a significantly more maneuverable mech.

(Plus, if we're comparing speeds and potential dps; we can just go ahead and proclaim the marauder/G2 raider op right now)