42 replies to this topic

[Amidatelion]

With various members of the HKTS stepping up with actually useful content, I figured I'd step up or risk being overshadowed by my inferiorscolleagues. So here's a list of carefully considered drastic changes to the game or development plan that I think it would benefit Reloaded to at least look at. They are aimed at overcoming the single largest problem the devs are going to face, namely that even assuming the development process from here on out goes smoothly, they are going to be battling three years worth of piled up poor reputation, P2W stigma, ignominious reviews and literally hundreds of thousands of now-disappointed players. The last /r/gaming thread is telling because as far as I could ascertain, not a single player spoke in defense of the game. 

 

Let's get cracking then, hmm?

 

1. Ditch the level system. 
   
   Entirely. It accomplishes nothing, simultaneously giving new players a false, wandering sense of progression and contributing to perceptions of a grind. It feeds into the same damn LoL issue where they get told not to bother buying fuzzy bunny for their mechs until level 30. This is a shooter and one with no need of an XP or level system, outside of providing a really poorly conceptualized monetization scheme. How much do people spend on XP boosts or transfers?
    
   No really. I'd like an answer to that.
2. All mechs come with a default loadout. 
   Similar to the current Assault they get, when players get a new mech they get a default set of items outside of a dinky little HE charge. Stripping the idea of levels out here also cuts the grind and gives a much more immediate sense of customization. For this to really work though, there are a few requirements that need to be met before or simultaneously:
   

    

   Req. 1: Item balancing. Turrets and ISM need to be useful, orbs need to be nerfed, extractor and repair kit need changes if not outright nerfs, etc., etc., all that fuzzy bunny we've been talking about for literally months.

   Req 2: Weapon availability. Weapons need to be non-level oriented and purchasable with HC and MC, preferably at a massively higher HC rate to justify spending MC on them. Furthermore stop visually representing them as tiers. Remove some of the P2W stigma and lay them out horizontally or in a circle.

   Req 3: Elite parts. Tie them to achievements! Tweak the goals for the Mech <rank> achievements and give people something to aim for outside their first 40 hours in game. This also opens up possibilities for elite parts across multiple mechs. Want another Raider? Buy it and its bling as fuzz gleaming white parts are already unlocked. 

   Tl;dr levels r bad, ur not CoD, #ditchthestigma
3. Cross-location servers.
   Atlantic failed. But as was demonstrated too late, there was some interest in making it work towards the end. The issue was that no one bothered switching to new region for extensive testing. Code something up so that a server can be listed in Amsterdam and Ashburn at the same time, while being physically in Iceland. Then give us some FUZZY BUNNY WARNING and we'll test it. Do something GROUND-BREAKING. Hawken was built on a reputation of mould-shattering. Leverage that. Do something no one has before.
4. Rebuild the maps.
   This one I admit to being hazy on. Apparently what they were built in was notorious for something that causes the BS sticky walls and floors (and maybe the gravity traps?). It's a massive undertaking, to be sure, but along with tweaks to run better on modern cards it would go a LONG way to making the game feel polished. Hawken's gameplay is solid, but its game world is a janky heap of awkward and anger. You're not Adhesive, no reason the walls need to be made of the stuff anymore.
5. WAN Connections.
   Look, guys, just... just fix the netcode. Make it server-side. Steal someone else's for all we care. If I need to watch one more goddamn grenade not register after my death I am going to fuzzy bunnyng scream myself Horus, lead an unholy crusade, backed by the powers of Chaos Undivided, to unseat the false Emperor on Terra.
6. Integrate fully with Steam.
   If you need evidence to bring to higher-ups, I will fuzzing find or do the research that shows a dinky little portal like Gamers First actively hampers profits. So help me god, I have multiple degrees in research and economic fields, I will fight you over this. Also bloody well get with the VAC because I am a vicious, vindictive wrath furnace, fueled by the digital corpses of weeping bads.
7. Clan system to backburner.
   Ok, I can see the pitchforks. Hear me out. Don't STOP development on it, but grow it with your population. It should be in no way be a priority. Right now Hawken's largest clans are struggling to break 50 members. That's a joke (sorry guys). Smaller, regional clans have three members. Building popularity is more important than maintaining it amongst current groups. Also, ffs, implement namechanges at some point in this timeline. Preferably via linking to your Steam account but make them purchasable for all I care.
8. League/Comp Support.
   A logical extension of the above. Right now, TPG and PT do a solid job of filling that role. There is little room left for expansion until population increases markedly. According to other TPG league statistics, the Hawken league could handle a 200% increase in participation without running into any administrative issues (barring the addition of a few admins, maybe). The same is probably true of PT, but I will leave that to Freeze's discretion.
9. Voice.
   See #5. Steal the fuzzy bunny out of it. Use Steam, TS, etc. Just get it done. Every minute your voice solution is being provided out of pocket by a sixteen year old funded by a bunch of shady internet figures your credibility falters.
10. Don't Leave Beta.
    Why would you? There is an enormous uphill battle to get this game in a strong position for release. Not necessarily in terms of gameplay, but certainly the UI, quality of life and reputation of the IP all need to be addressed before the game will be polished enough to be presentable as "finished." Leaving Beta is the last resort or triumphal moment of early access games. You better be sure it's one of them, because you do not get a second shot at the amount and thrust of attention you will get. 

 

[TheFrostnessMonster]

I agree with points 1 - 10, thanks for writing out what I was to lazy to do.

 

In all seriousness though, very solid points.

[OdinTheWise]

i think #4 and 5 should be a priority 

[comic_sans]

I feel like this is redundant with tickle's thread.

 

Though I def agree with ditching levels, why not steal the stattrak idea from CS and make some purchaseable whatever track how many kills you've gotten with a given thingamajig and display that to everyone?  That lets you display your e-peen without tying it so much to necessary grind.

[ticklemyiguana]

I feel like this is redundant with tickle's thread.

Does that mean I have to like it?

 

I did though. My thread didn't touch on some of these points and Amid leaves out some of mine. For those curious.

 

Spoiler

No but really.

 

It goes with minimal saying that I agree with the above post and forgive Amid for his redundancy.

[americanbrit14]

 

You're not Adhesive, no reason the walls need to be made of the stuff anymore.

Start peeling off the tape and get the anti-glue cuz Christ on a flaming cracker this will be quite the task

[OdinTheWise]

Start peeling off the tape and get the anti-glue cuz Christ on a flaming cracker this will be quite the task

with the proper numbers of virgins sacrificed to the appropriate gods i believe this is not a problem  

[Merl61]

I rather enjoy walls in Hawken. What do you think would happen if a giant metal creature slammed into a rock face. 

Edited by Lil Wizzy, 10 November 2015 - 09:45 PM.

[Aregon]

 

1. WAN Connections.
   Look, guys, just... just fix the netcode. Make it server-side. Steal someone else's for all we care. If I need to watch one more goddamn grenade not register after my death I am going to fuzzy bunnyng scream myself Horus, lead an unholy crusade, backed by the powers of Chaos Undivided, to unseat the false Emperor on Terra.

[DerMax]

Good list, but will they listen?

[CoshCaust]

 

I rather enjoy walls in Hawken. What do you think would happen if a giant metal creature slammed into a rock face. 

 

 

See i kind of get this, but then...the mechs' movements aren't very mech-y in the first place; so my hatred for the sandpaper magnet glue walls remains.

 

 

1. WAN Connections.
   Look, guys, just... just fix the netcode. Make it server-side. Steal someone else's for all we care. If I need to watch one more goddamn grenade not register after my death I am going to fuzzy bunnyng scream myself Horus, lead an unholy crusade, backed by the powers of Chaos Undivided, to unseat the false Emperor on Terra.

 

Mfw Reloaded fixes reg

 

Edited by CoshCaust, 11 November 2015 - 01:20 AM.

[Aelita]

Good list, but will they listen?

 

Upvote Thread on top right (*****) and "follow this topic". Maybe it helps? I like this constructional approach among the pilots. All fair points well put (even if i am not agreeing with the significance about everything of it - doesn´t matter).  If they don´t listen...well at least we tried. right?

That o.c. goes for all the "good" threads.

Edited by Aelita, 11 November 2015 - 01:46 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Good list, but will they listen?

 

They probably will, the better question would be: 

 

Are they able to take these points into account and take appropiate actions soon™?

 

It doesn't matter if the points are good or bad or if they take a look at it. Reloaded has currently no resources or atleast not the ones needed to do drastic changes besides backend stuff people like me don't give a damn about. Wheather I have a ping of 100 or 20 is not a difference for me if if 1000 out of 10 things are just wrong. 

 

Yes the miscounting is intentional.

[Hyginos]

I rather enjoy walls in Hawken. What do you think would happen if a giant metal creature slammed into a rock face. 

 

I don't think that's what he's talking about. There are a few walls that will grab you and hold you airborn, not to mention projectile bounces, and the occasional increase in gravity next to the stage on wreckage.

[CraftyDus]

 

1. According to other TPG league statistics, the Hawken league could handle a 200% increase in participation without running into any administrative issues (barring the addition of a few admins, maybe).

 

 

We have a single division's worth of teams now (10 teams of 9 players).

We have a staff sized to easily handle 4 divisions, with much larger rosters.

TPG handled quintiple the participation in DOD 6v6, with additionally more cups and tourneys that Hawken has now, right up until 2014 with a similar amount of admins.

 

200% is a huge understatement

[ATX22]

Spoiler

 

With various members of the HKTS stepping up with actually useful content, I figured I'd step up or risk being overshadowed by my inferiorscolleagues. So here's a list of carefully considered drastic changes to the game or development plan that I think it would benefit Reloaded to at least look at. They are aimed at overcoming the single largest problem the devs are going to face, namely that even assuming the development process from here on out goes smoothly, they are going to be battling three years worth of piled up poor reputation, P2W stigma, ignominious reviews and literally hundreds of thousands of now-disappointed players. The last /r/gaming thread is telling because as far as I could ascertain, not a single player spoke in defense of the game. 

 

Let's get cracking then, hmm?

 

1. Ditch the level system. 
   
   Entirely. It accomplishes nothing, simultaneously giving new players a false, wandering sense of progression and contributing to perceptions of a grind. It feeds into the same damn LoL issue where they get told not to bother buying fuzzy bunny for their mechs until level 30. This is a shooter and one with no need of an XP or level system, outside of providing a really poorly conceptualized monetization scheme. How much do people spend on XP boosts or transfers?
    
   No really. I'd like an answer to that.
2. All mechs come with a default loadout. 
   Similar to the current Assault they get, when players get a new mech they get a default set of items outside of a dinky little HE charge. Stripping the idea of levels out here also cuts the grind and gives a much more immediate sense of customization. For this to really work though, there are a few requirements that need to be met before or simultaneously:
   

    

   Req. 1: Item balancing. Turrets and ISM need to be useful, orbs need to be nerfed, extractor and repair kit need changes if not outright nerfs, etc., etc., all that fuzzy bunny we've been talking about for literally months.

   Req 2: Weapon availability. Weapons need to be non-level oriented and purchasable with HC and MC, preferably at a massively higher HC rate to justify spending MC on them. Furthermore stop visually representing them as tiers. Remove some of the P2W stigma and lay them out horizontally or in a circle.

   Req 3: Elite parts. Tie them to achievements! Tweak the goals for the Mech <rank> achievements and give people something to aim for outside their first 40 hours in game. This also opens up possibilities for elite parts across multiple mechs. Want another Raider? Buy it and its bling as fuzz gleaming white parts are already unlocked. 

   Tl;dr levels r bad, ur not CoD, #ditchthestigma
3. Cross-location servers.
   Atlantic failed. But as was demonstrated too late, there was some interest in making it work towards the end. The issue was that no one bothered switching to new region for extensive testing. Code something up so that a server can be listed in Amsterdam and Ashburn at the same time, while being physically in Iceland. Then give us some FUZZY BUNNY WARNING and we'll test it. Do something GROUND-BREAKING. Hawken was built on a reputation of mould-shattering. Leverage that. Do something no one has before.
4. Rebuild the maps.
   This one I admit to being hazy on. Apparently what they were built in was notorious for something that causes the BS sticky walls and floors (and maybe the gravity traps?). It's a massive undertaking, to be sure, but along with tweaks to run better on modern cards it would go a LONG way to making the game feel polished. Hawken's gameplay is solid, but its game world is a janky heap of awkward and anger. You're not Adhesive, no reason the walls need to be made of the stuff anymore.
5. WAN Connections.
   Look, guys, just... just fix the netcode. Make it server-side. Steal someone else's for all we care. If I need to watch one more goddamn grenade not register after my death I am going to fuzzy bunnyng scream myself Horus, lead an unholy crusade, backed by the powers of Chaos Undivided, to unseat the false Emperor on Terra.
6. Integrate fully with Steam.
   If you need evidence to bring to higher-ups, I will fuzzing find or do the research that shows a dinky little portal like Gamers First actively hampers profits. So help me god, I have multiple degrees in research and economic fields, I will fight you over this. Also bloody well get with the VAC because I am a vicious, vindictive wrath furnace, fueled by the digital corpses of weeping bads.
7. Clan system to backburner.
   Ok, I can see the pitchforks. Hear me out. Don't STOP development on it, but grow it with your population. It should be in no way be a priority. Right now Hawken's largest clans are struggling to break 50 members. That's a joke (sorry guys). Smaller, regional clans have three members. Building popularity is more important than maintaining it amongst current groups. Also, ffs, implement namechanges at some point in this timeline. Preferably via linking to your Steam account but make them purchasable for all I care.
8. League/Comp Support.
   A logical extension of the above. Right now, TPG and PT do a solid job of filling that role. There is little room left for expansion until population increases markedly. According to other TPG league statistics, the Hawken league could handle a 200% increase in participation without running into any administrative issues (barring the addition of a few admins, maybe). The same is probably true of PT, but I will leave that to Freeze's discretion.
9. Voice.
   See #5. Steal the fuzzy bunny out of it. Use Steam, TS, etc. Just get it done. Every minute your voice solution is being provided out of pocket by a sixteen year old funded by a bunch of shady internet figures your credibility falters.
10. Don't Leave Beta.
    Why would you? There is an enormous uphill battle to get this game in a strong position for release. Not necessarily in terms of gameplay, but certainly the UI, quality of life and reputation of the IP all need to be addressed before the game will be polished enough to be presentable as "finished." Leaving Beta is the last resort or triumphal moment of early access games. You better be sure it's one of them, because you do not get a second shot at the amount and thrust of attention you will get. 

 

 

Good points and all, but you'll still be left with a game that HEAVILY favors the awesome-good players by design and does little to nothing today to keep them from wrecking a new player's experience.  With the  health system, the heat-limited only weapons, small team size, down to the movement system, those who learn to exploit that combo in Hawken and learn to do so well are going to obliterate the new to average player they encounter.  Even managing to take down one of the "greats" in-game is virtually meaningless because they'll just respawn in a few moments and rinse / wash / repeat.  

 

On point 1:

 

Ditching the leveling system will remove that fairly useless number, sure, but it's not going to do much to improve the "Hawken experience".  People will still scream P2W or hackusations.  An XP / leveling system should be used to get people to feel that they're more and more invested in the game / their account.  Hawken isn't a retail game, people don't continue to play it because they had to pay a $60 entrance fee and want to get their money's worth out of it.

 

On point 8:

 

How big is Hawken league play?  What is the general interest in watching Hawken league play (streaming / YouTube videos)? 

 

Me personally, I'm not interested in either because in Hawken, it amounts to watching Electric football (https://en.wikipedia...ectric_football) as each team throws mechs at a capture / energy point in siege/MA or at each other in TDM.  Generally just all the players bunching up at the center of the map or on some control point.  You don't have those tense moments near the end of a round where you're down to your last two surviving players waiting to see who sees who first (think CS).  It's literally waiting for a counter to reach zero (siege/MA) or a K:D competition (TDM) to see who can get the most kills before the clock runs out with the game modes available.

[StubbornPuppet]

I agree with you on most everything except the concept of 'working to level up'.

 

A: I think it gives players something to accomplish - and a sense of accomplishment is one of the core elements of a rewarding experience.

 

B: Many players actually like to grind up to earn things.

 

C: It is a free to play game (currently anyhow), and they will need incentives to get the impatient people to throw money instead of doing hard work.

 

D: All of the above combine to give the game a psychological sense of 'need to return to finish what I started'.

 

I just think if you take away too much of the grinding and progression, you take away part of what keeps players coming back... and eventually gets them hooked and makes them a better player.

[Hyginos]

How big is Hawken league play?  What is the general interest in watching Hawken league play (streaming / YouTube videos)? 

 

Hawken comp play is still pretty small, but I still see twitch streams of league play for games that are 10+ years old, so a proper spectator client may be one step toward improving both Hawken's visibility and longevity. If there was a proper spectator client I would imagine 90% of organized comp matches would be streamed/recorded.

Edited by Hyginos, 11 November 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Amidatelion]

We have a single division's worth of teams now (10 teams of 9 players).

We have a staff sized to easily handle 4 divisions, with much larger rosters.

TPG handled quintiple the participation in DOD 6v6, with additionally more cups and tourneys that Hawken has now, right up until 2014 with a similar amount of admins.

 

200% is a huge understatement

 

Yeah but I was going by information visible to scrubs, which lists 30 teams in the DOD league currently.

[Amidatelion]

Spoiler

 

Good points and all, but you'll still be left with a game that HEAVILY favors the awesome-good players by design and does little to nothing today to keep them from wrecking a new player's experience.  With the  health system, the heat-limited only weapons, small team size, down to the movement system, those who learn to exploit that combo in Hawken and learn to do so well are going to obliterate the new to average player they encounter.  Even managing to take down one of the "greats" in-game is virtually meaningless because they'll just respawn in a few moments and rinse / wash / repeat.  

 

On point 1:

 

Ditching the leveling system will remove that fairly useless number, sure, but it's not going to do much to improve the "Hawken experience".  People will still scream P2W or hackusations.  An XP / leveling system should be used to get people to feel that they're more and more invested in the game / their account.  Hawken isn't a retail game, people don't continue to play it because they had to pay a $60 entrance fee and want to get their money's worth out of it.

 

On point 8:

 

How big is Hawken league play?  What is the general interest in watching Hawken league play (streaming / YouTube videos)? 

 

Me personally, I'm not interested in either because in Hawken, it amounts to watching Electric football (https://en.wikipedia...ectric_football) as each team throws mechs at a capture / energy point in siege/MA or at each other in TDM.  Generally just all the players bunching up at the center of the map or on some control point.  You don't have those tense moments near the end of a round where you're down to your last two surviving players waiting to see who sees who first (think CS).  It's literally waiting for a counter to reach zero (siege/MA) or a K:D competition (TDM) to see who can get the most kills before the clock runs out with the game modes available.

 

The only answer to your issues with the experience is an increase in population or newbie servers restricted by some chosen value.

 

Regarding your issues with tense games, false:

 

[DeeRax]

 

I am going to fuzzy bunnyng scream myself Horus, lead an unholy crusade, backed by the powers of Chaos Undivided, to unseat the false Emperor on Terra.

 

Can we just do this anyways?

[ATX22]

The only answer to your issues with the experience is an increase in population or newbie servers restricted by some chosen value.

 

Regarding your issues with tense games, false:

 

 

I really think it's more to do with the game mechanics in Hawken; you're not going to magically grow your playerbase without changing SOMETHING.  It could be something as simple as new content being released on a regular basis.  Maybe getting the servers and netcode under control.  Only time will tell.  I still think it's the tiny playerbase coupled with the game mechanics I was talking about earlier.  [EDIT: segregating new players from the vets here has been tried before, between the smurfs and MM, it didn't work out... I can only hope Reloaded doesn't repeat those mistakes.]

 

I'll take a look at the video when I'm not on a bandwidth limited connection, but it must be one heck of a video to garner less than a 100 views so far...even if the video isn't that old.  But already, looks like lack of interest out there to me.   But, like I said, I'll give it a view when I can.  But if it's anything like what I've seen before, I'm just going to leave thinking that Hawken needs some actual spectator support, and yup really good Hawken player.. but not really making me want to play the game.

 

 

EDIT: Watched... a good portion of it... got bored.  Hawken NEEDS some spectator support so you're not stuck watching from one player's perspective in FPS mode.  Almost 3 mins of BLAH before any action and it's pretty much what I'd expect to see from any Hawken recording, but with good players.  I know there's interest in League-play in  Hawken (how much though?), but outside of the people already super interested in this game, I'm not sure if there's much interest in watching them.

Edited by ATX22, 11 November 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[DM30]

I remember Josh saying that they weren't looking to make any more major changes to the game, but I really hope that isn't set in stone because I could definitely get behind a lot of these points. The points on the level system, mech loadouts and maps especially I think should be seriously looked into.

[comic_sans]

I remember Josh saying that they weren't looking to make any more major changes to the game, but I really hope that isn't set in stone because I could definitely get behind a lot of these points. The points on the level system, mech loadouts and maps especially I think should be seriously looked into.

 

Major changes is one thing, completely revamping everything we've come to understand is another.

[nepacaka]

just delete this fuzzy bunnyng waiting time betten matches, and hawken will be a good game! :D

 

 

This is a shooter and one with no need of an XP or level system

 

it is part of MMO system. just something wrong in hawken. people love small rpg elements in shooters. like ranking in CoD, etc. it not give you nothing in any shooter, but it can be a good factor which forced player to stay in game.
leveling (or vertical progression) probably shouldn't give you advantages if compared with newbies (now you can't buy some internals if you are low-tier player, it is probably wrong)

 

 

Rebuild the maps.

 

hah! hahaha... ahahahahahha!

ok.

1) sticky wall

2) gravity pads+compressor don't have a inertia

problem not in maps, but in game code and collision model. changing mechs hitboxes to a one simple form, probably can help (like cylinder, for example), and be a easy solution (not the best, but easy to do).

 

 

Hawken's gameplay is solid

 

hawken gameplay actually is not solid. Gameplay can be considered as a solid if it is constant for any situation on the battlefield. this rule is not satisfied in Hawken.

i agree, maps have problems (in my opinion, big problems) due by their size. different class mech (A/B/C) can't play good at any map. some mech suffer so much from map-size. it's like play in MA on lost Eco or FL and use Brawler. It is super-bored. it is suck like a hell.

hawken maps should be small and high, like Origin. 50% of maps now are totally fuzzy bunny, because too big. i don't see nothing solid in this, because it make gameplay bored, uncomfortable, and stupid. F@cking brawler need 30 sec to travel through lostEco.

80% of map areas never used in Siege...

 

fixing sticky walls - it is not enough. to fix maps, you need delete from game LostEco, Frontline, and Facility. lol.

or another way how to fix a map. change game modes. it solved many problems.

Uptown - DM, TDM
Origin - DM, TDM, Siege, MA
Prosk - DM, TDM
Bazaar - TDM, MA
Facility - DM, TDM, MA
Frontline - TDM, Siege, MA
LEco - TDM, Siege
Wreckage - DM, TDM, Siege, MA
Bunker - DM, TDM, MA

 

 

 

what i want to say... 50% of maps just suck! and all problems based in maps size, not in sticky walls. (to be honest, i'm very rare stuck in walls)

 

also, new map design is suck too!

hawken mechs should war in city, climbing on building roofs, and fighting beetwen 2-3 dimension.
all old map have a vertical design (uptown, prosk, origin), all other map - no. LE, FL, facil, Bazaar, Bunker, Wreckage - all new map created in one dimension. 95% time you fight only at 1 floor.

it is obviously for me, that Hawken-beta maps, and new maps created by different map designers. and the second one don't understand how to create a hawken maps.
now you can fix it only if totally change a mech boosting system.

seriously. these maps are bored...



Amidatellion, most of points which you tell, just broken from start, or created bad after ascension. it is mistakes, which you can't fix now. (you actually can, if spent 1 million babaji credits and 1k hours of work, but who want to do this?)

it is too late for this...even if Reloaded listen/read, they probably can't fix all of this =(



 

Edited by nepacaka, 11 November 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[Amidatelion]

Major changes is one thing, completely revamping everything we've come to understand is another.

 

Yeah, it's why I touched absolutely nothiing in regards to gameplay. The map changes would ideally only be surface level, smoothing things out and all the topology and visuals would remain the same.

[Silverfire]

I really think it's more to do with the game mechanics in Hawken; you're not going to magically grow your playerbase without changing SOMETHING. It could be something as simple as new content being released on a regular basis. Maybe getting the servers and netcode under control. Only time will tell. I still think it's the tiny playerbase coupled with the game mechanics I was talking about earlier. [EDIT: segregating new players from the vets here has been tried before, between the smurfs and MM, it didn't work out... I can only hope Reloaded doesn't repeat those mistakes.]

I'll take a look at the video when I'm not on a bandwidth limited connection, but it must be one heck of a video to garner less than a 100 views so far...even if the video isn't that old. But already, looks like lack of interest out there to me. But, like I said, I'll give it a view when I can. But if it's anything like what I've seen before, I'm just going to leave thinking that Hawken needs some actual spectator support, and yup really good Hawken player.. but not really making me want to play the game.


EDIT: Watched... a good portion of it... got bored. Hawken NEEDS some spectator support so you're not stuck watching from one player's perspective in FPS mode. Almost 3 mins of BLAH before any action and it's pretty much what I'd expect to see from any Hawken recording, but with good players. I know there's interest in League-play in Hawken (how much though?), but outside of the people already super interested in this game, I'm not sure if there's much interest in watching them.

Instead of lack of interest, it's more of a lack of exposure of competitive play and people understanding what's going on.

People don't know it exists. Just because it's out there in the wild doesn't mean it's known.

[Sylhiri]

In regards to gaining new players, after taking a long break from Hawken I really have to wonder if the "robotic" movement is helping or hurting the game. I'm going to tell you before I say anything that when I came into Hawken and continued to play the turn caps did not bother me at all, it was just something that was part of the game and as I continued to play Hawken as the only shooter I was playing. The turn cap wasn't even in the back of my mind.

 

I came back and played a game around two weeks ago and the turn cap was frustrating as all hell. I wasn't just fighting the players in the game, I was fighting the game itself. Now I knew I was rusty but the match was basically lower tiered players, I could still use my EOC fine after a while (riding a bike) but the turn cap just continued to annoy me. Nothing else bothered me as much as the damned turn cap, something most other shooters don't have. I didn't feel immersed, like I was piloting a mech but that could be because I've already been so used to the game that the "mech immersion" doesn't register anymore.

 

If I continue playing Hawken I'm sure that I would get used to the turn cap again after some time but the experience gave me a glimpse in what new players coming from other shooters might have been feeling.

[ATX22]

Instead of lack of interest, it's more of a lack of exposure of competitive play and people understanding what's going on.

People don't know it exists. Just because it's out there in the wild doesn't mean it's known.

 

Look, I had two questions:

 

 

How big is Hawken league play?  What is the general interest in watching Hawken league play (streaming / YouTube videos)?

 

 

That was followed by my own personal opinion with a short "here's why I have this opinion" explanation that has started this.  Both of which have yet to be answered and I'm apparently going to have to stay on the defensive because.. raisins. 

 

Well ****, here I go then: I don't know, but of the small Hawken player base, a much smaller chunk of it seems to actually care about league play, but like I said; I don't know, hence the questions above.  I still think a first person view video of a single person's perspective in a game with nearly zero spectator support (support ticket solution still in effect?) of a bunch of players dogpiling on a capture point over and over is boring.  My own personal observation, one which I'm not trying to pass off as anything but a personal observation.  

 

I think I'm going to limit myself to single line posts.. no more than one sentence.

[HugeGuts]

I wasn't just fighting the players in the game, I was fighting the game itself.

 

The "robotic" movement system is un-intuitive and restrictive for the competitive pace Hawken currently has. Minus some needed polish, it was perfectly fine during the methodical pace of pre-Technician Hawken.

 

Though there seems to be some ideas of increasing the TTK rolling around Reloaded's head, I'm not sure if it will be enough to soften the blow for new players. Higher health wasn't the only reason pre-Technician Hawken was so accessible. Slower secondary reloads, fuel on dodge, and slower heat dissipation all contributed to a welcoming new player experience. Slower secondary reloads made it easier to time dodges in your head. Fuel on dodge and slower heat dissipation mitigated death balls and pub stomping (unless the other players were 'that' bad) because even skilled players at full health could suddenly find themselves in a bad way if they were caught with high heat and/or low fuel. But then the Technician released and jacked this system up.

Edited by HugeGuts, 13 November 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[nepacaka]

The "robotic" movement system is un-intuitive and restrictive for the competitive pace Hawken currently has. Minus some needed polish, it was perfectly fine during the methodical pace of pre-Technician Hawken.

 

this competitive gameplay probably #1 hawken problem. i talking about popularity.
push hawken to more simulator gameplay probably a good idea to have a mech fans auditory, but instead of this ADH start push it to arcade gameplay, and delete all nice game features. in my opinion, it is a not good decision.

 

this "competitive" gameplay no need anyone (except small amount of true nerds), it is not good for popularity, not good for money. i think hawken should have their own niche in shooters, like mech-shooter, but hawken is not have it now. after ascension patch ADH turn it into ordinary shooter, now it is just probably impossible to develop hawken in another direction after all game changes.

 

game modes, maps, leveling, unbalanced mechs, and other - it is not a problem. it is sh!t. many popular MMO games have the same problem, or even more. but people play in these games. why not hawken? because hawken should be oriented on mech-fans. and mech-fans love simulators. average people just not interested in hawken.

and part of advertising company with beta-videos on youtube. when people see these videos, than jump in hawken, and don't understand, why this game not looks like in video? where this game in which they want to play?

be sure, 99% player in hawken came after see alpha/beta video. ascension graphics is bad, because it does not look "exciting", and It does not create the desired effect on the potencial player.

Edited by nepacaka, 13 November 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Sylhiri]

this competitive gameplay probably #1 hawken problem. i talking about popularity.
push hawken to more simulator gameplay probably a good idea to have a mech fans auditory, but instead of this ADH start push it to arcade gameplay, and delete all nice game features. in my opinion, it is a not good decision.

 

this "competitive" gameplay no need anyone (except small amount of true nerds), it is not good for popularity, not good for money. i think hawken should have their own niche in shooters, like mech-shooter, but hawken is not have it now. after ascension patch ADH turn it into ordinary shooter, now it is just probably impossible to develop hawken in another direction after all game changes.

 

I can see why ADH pushed to arcade gameplay as it has a greater pool of players to attempt to gain money from. It tried to do both but it wasn't pleasing for mech simulator fans or shooter fans. If they went more toward the mech simulator side I can see them losing much of their current player base and on top of that they have to compete with other mech simulator games who basically dominate it's little niche market. Shooter/arcade type games are more broad so it's easier to come into the market. I'm not saying they should go full on shooter but the mech simulator seems like the poorer choice since it would basically need a rebuild.

 

 

-------

 

I really don't think that Hawken has a true identity. It wants to be a team shooter but it feels like that element is duct taped on, the abilities of the older generation mechs are very plain leaning towards solo play more and a lot of them really don't define the mech or it's role (stat boosting) as good as what it could be. Once you get past the shock of "omgimdrivingamech" it's actually very bland. The maps don't really help in that regard too as there usually is an optimal path and many sections of the map go unused for a majority of the fight. There are multiple different ways to get to a point but most of them feel unsatisfying to use, a lot of times it feels like you go out of your way and out of the fight so long that the benefit of going that route is usually lower then using the optimal route and in some cases the enemy already moved on to a different area. Using these routes can work but quite a number of times it feels like a waste of time.

Edited by Sylhiri, 13 November 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[nepacaka]

If they went more toward the mech simulator side I can see them losing much of their current player base and on top of that they have to compete with other mech simulator games who basically dominate it's little niche market.

 

it is probably only MWO.
but in current statement hawken should compete with titan-game like CoD, CS. it is probably even worse than compete with one MWO.

 

Shooter/arcade type games are more broad so it's easier to come into the market.

 

it is not true. some very popular game are extremely hard if compared with hawken. complex mechanic it is not a bad. sometimes it is even better and more interest than pew-pew shooter. maybe this is the reason why many people play in these games.

Edited by nepacaka, 13 November 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Derpy Hooves]

 

With various members of the HKTS stepping up with actually useful content, I figured I'd step up or risk being overshadowed by my inferiorscolleagues. So here's a list of carefully considered drastic changes to the game or development plan that I think it would benefit Reloaded to at least look at. They are aimed at overcoming the single largest problem the devs are going to face, namely that even assuming the development process from here on out goes smoothly, they are going to be battling three years worth of piled up poor reputation, P2W stigma, ignominious reviews and literally hundreds of thousands of now-disappointed players. The last /r/gaming thread is telling because as far as I could ascertain, not a single player spoke in defense of the game. 

 

Let's get cracking then, hmm?

1. Rebuild the maps.
   This one I admit to being hazy on. Apparently what they were built in was notorious for something that causes the BS sticky walls and floors (and maybe the gravity traps?). It's a massive undertaking, to be sure, but along with tweaks to run better on modern cards it would go a LONG way to making the game feel polished. Hawken's gameplay is solid, but its game world is a janky heap of awkward and anger. You're not Adhesive, no reason the walls need to be made of the stuff anymore.

 

To give some insight on the maps, since I've been tearing them apart in the Unreal Dev Kit a majority of the problem maps Last Eco, Prosk,and Wreckage have an exuberant use of legacy functions for foliage, and awkward use reflections for water, and over use of small animated objects, which causes the G-buffer to skyrocket causing performance drops. Obviously a move to DirectX 11 wold help solve some of this, but it'd still be an issue regardless, to break it down for you.

 

Last Eco/Wreckage: Biggest issue is the dense amount of foliage, most of these are done in a legacy manner through foliage volumes and terrain decorations, this is also why when the Dynamic Shadows option is turned on in those areas of the maps, performance tanks even worse than with it off. These legacy foliage modes don't like UE3s' Lightmass system there for tank the performance. The newer system which uses meshes instead of legacy volume and decoration calls, can bunch all foliage meshes into a single draw call. I.E. if the current model uses 30 calls for all the foliage in a given area, the new mesh system can reduce that down to just 1 call, increasing performance. In the end less draw calls = faster performance.

 

Wreckage: An issue exclusive to Wreckage especially on the outside and back regions of the map, is the abundance of water, the water itself isn't the issue since it's just one big static mesh with physics calls for when we walk through it. The issue is the reflections DirectX 9.0c supports up to Shader Model 3.0, SM 3.0 was never to "keen" on rendering reflections on transparencies, under DirectX 10/11 with SM 4.0 and 5.0 it's done far far more efficently since Transform calls are written simpler.

 

Prosk: A major issue is all the little trucks/cars/tanks/etc, problem here is these all use skeletal meshes. Skeletal meshes are built up of two parts, a set of polygons composed to make up the surface of the skeletal mesh and a hierarchical set of interconnected bones which can be used to animate the polygons. In layman terms essentially every little truck, car, tanker truck, sign is rendered as if it's another player. As with most MMORPG's have shown us, lots of players in one area performance drops like a rock. Even though they don't animate at first, they can still bounce, break and decay, some explode, all of these are animation/lighting/physics/particle calls. This isn't so much a GPU problem but more a CPU problem since since all that is calculated on the CPU side before being rendered on the GPU side. A move to DirectX 11 would help here since these calculations could be passed to the GPU via DirectCompute/OpenCL increasing performance considerablly.

 

As far as fixing the sticky walls it shouldn't be to hard, it's not too massive, just very time consuming just no attention was paid to the maps after they were Scaleform'd/Simplygon'd. As far as the tweaks to make them run better on modern cards, it's just correcting the things I outlined above. DirectX 9 is just a really limited API compared to what could be done in DirectX 11.

 

Another thing that could help with the maps, is to cull the outside portions of the maps, anyone who's explored the maps to find ways to get outside of map bounds knowns, there's a vast amount of unused useless area, often pocketed with various things which really aren't needed. Take Wreckage for example, leading back to the water issue, there's an absurd amount of water outside of the map that we can't normally get to, through self testing and testimony from other players, the particular bad spots of the map, are the sides for Prosk/Sentium initial spawning, out in front near the AA battery, and along the back wall near the second EU tree, as well as the adjacent side corridors. There's loads and loads of water, trees, foliage, out there, so much unnessiary stuff. If we can't get to it why have it there? If you ask me map performance would increase if this was removed. A lot of the other maps suffer from this "overprovisioning" as well. Frontline for example, there's space equal to the size of the spawning zones for siege matches all around the outside of the map. Not to mention the 20 or 30 misc props under there, which are there for yet again, no real reason. If the maps were culled down and sky meshes used for depth perception instead of having actual land outside the boundries, there'd be a lot less performance complaints.

 

If anyone's interested in the topic you can find information on Unreal's Level Editing Home and Unreal Engine's DirectX 11 Features. and some background on Differed Shading.

[jjm1]

Someone needs to open the maps up, select all collision volumes and hit delete. Then remake them without any holes and misalignments.

Edited by jjm1, 17 November 2015 - 11:58 PM.

[nepacaka]

Someone needs to open the maps up, select all collision volumes and hit delete. Then remake them without any holes and misalignments.

like it was before. But community ask added a holes...XD

[Kopra]

To give some insight on the maps, ...

5/5

[nepacaka]

Also, wreckage, lostEco, and Bazaar may cause game crash if you have 2gb Ram. It is really should be fixed, because it is just unplayable. 40% of map not working. Lol.

[Rainbow_Sheep]

Talking about optimisations, A 64 bit client would help. I'm not sure how much the RAM limit in 32 bit clients is a factor, but it would sure help even just on the CPU end

Edited by Rainbow Sheep, 18 November 2015 - 07:40 AM.

[Derpy Hooves]

Also, wreckage, lostEco, and Bazaar may cause game crash if you have 2gb Ram. It is really should be fixed, because it is just unplayable. 40% of map not working. Lol.

Never noticed anything on Bazaar, though it's worth a look to see what's hidden or how overprovisioned it is.

 

Talking about optimisations, A 64 bit client would help. I'm not sure how much the RAM limit in 32 bit clients is a factor, but it would sure help even just on the CPU end

A 64 bit client wouldn't nessisarily help, if anything it would just let what memory leaks that are present currently run even more rampant. As far as 32 bit ram limits, you can have 4GB installed but roughly 3.25GB is usable to the system, the other .75GB of ram is reserved for PCI/PCIe/ISA/ect/ect addressing.