39 replies to this topic

[Ezodev]

Hi. Recently, I feel like problem with smurfs is increasing. And with cheaters, for some reason. Honestly, after spending several hundred hours of playing the game, I feel like I'm going to quit for that reason. It's just unplayable.

 

So, how can this problem be solved?

 

I think that there is a solution which will eliminate most of both cheaters and smurfs.

 

Simply check what their post-match stats are, compared to amount of time they spent in the game(on a given account).

 

Supposed complete newbie(2-8h of playtime) beats players like iDim consistently? Nope. Chances of that are very, very small. So they are either smurfs, or cheaters, or both.

 

Ban their account and IP automatically. In case of false positive, however unlikely it is, they can always reach to support.

 

Our playerbase is very, very small. It takes only one or two cheaters to make game unplayable in one region.

 

I think this problem is critical enough that it can completely kill this game.

 

 

 

Also, game should register data which allows for a replay of the match anytime. So support can check it in case players are flagged as cheaters unfairly.

 

And game should check consistency of aim. After someone starts shooting at the target, does he ever miss when aiming for scout which is currently dodging, for example? If not, that could mean he's cheating.

 

 

Anyway, this solves both of these problems, as most people would cheat on smurf account. If someone with high play-time cheats, then he can be caught traditionally, by players. 

[HHJFTRU]

It was funny today that you were hackused by a low level smurf who was a good player otherwise that admittedly played 1000+ hours. :)

I agree that few people are ruining games in EU and it is very hard to find a server that has no cheaters or low level smurfs. Nor Gadzi.

 

I just wrote about what if creating an account would cost money. But as a first step, an e-mail verification would be more than nothing.

Regarding anti-cheat, blatant snapping could be noticed easily from server side. Triggerbotting too, I guess.

[Nov8tr]

Yeah its getting too toxic with people like Flowey_the_Flower, a known hacker and still playing. Uh why?? And tons of Runapanda alts who come on and cheat, get banned and move on to another of her many, many alts. Some she's had for years. When ppl like this come on and play for hours. Brag about not being banned, it makes it rough for new ppl who don't know who they are or what they are. I don't have any magic answers, I wish I did because I really like this game. A lot. 

[nepacaka]

to be honest ?1
most of players whos was called cheaters, actually not a cheaters  :P

to be honest ?2
not so long time ago i play on funny smurf account. and many players call me a cheater, even some people who know me  xD
and many players tell me that i'm "stupid smurf and ruined balance", but they just can't realize that my smurf have Higher MMR than my real account  :3

[Ezodev]

@someone Yep, it was hilarious.

 

I think 'pay-per-account' idea won't fly, because it could potentially scare away new players. Which would be suicidal for Hawken.

 

@nepacaka

 

Yes, of course. I myself have been hackused several times. But there *are* some cheaters, and they are a problem.

 

About your smurfing, I would say that it wasn't smurfing at all. If your 'smurf' account had higher MMR than your 'real' one, then I would name it 'alt' account, if not outright your 'main' one.

 

Problem isn't with all alt accounts, but with alt accounts which have MMR that doesn't match your skill.

Edited by Ezodev, 29 May 2016 - 01:18 PM.

[Guns_N_Rozer]

So Much Call Out like iAim  

[DemitronPrime]

Enigmatic_loon Aka Flowery does it because it gets attention...

 

This is something I hadnt quite grasped (despite silverfire repeating it several times ) until recently...

Though i do not agree to the no name n shame policy it does exist...

 

we all know that hacks and smurfs are too common in Hawken at the moment, all we can do is HOPE reloaded fix this soon...

wasting out time feeding the trolls isnt gonna achieve fuzzy bunny but inspire more people to try get mentioned too...

 

YES we need an anti cheat, YES we need account verification for new accounts,

 

A great idea would be to make a server or two specially for people tagged as hackers and lock them out of all others..

that way they can sit on their server and play other hackers...

 

it will be like bumfights.. reloaded could almost fund the entire games development by recording the matchs and salty local

[ticklemyiguana]

 

Ban their account and IP automatically.

lol

 

In case of false positive, however unlikely it is, they can always reach to support.

rofl

 

This is not my most productive post, but come on. You have hundreds of hours in game, but don't understand the situation the game and its developers are in?

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 29 May 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[DemitronPrime]

IP ban is used by SOME other games and online programs... it IS HARD but not impossible...

Linden Labs have a working system with second life, Bad example but displays possibility... But yeah, again far too much work

 

Again, my though remains...

 

-snip-

 

A great idea would be to make a server or two specially for people tagged as hackers and lock them out of all others..

that way they can sit on their server and play other hackers...

 

it will be like bumfights.. reloaded could almost fund the entire games development by recording the matchs and salty local

 

The income from those youtube videos alone.... XD

[Ezodev]

@ticklemyiguana

 

You mean that it could scare potential new players? As I said, chances of new player beating 2k+ MMR one are negligible. Chances of him doing that repeatedly are practically nil.

 

Or that it's hard to implement? It isn't. Maybe few person-workdays, spent mostly on figuring out good conditions/thresholds of ban.

Edited by Ezodev, 29 May 2016 - 09:32 PM.

[DemitronPrime]

no i mean that once a ticket is submitted, and the hack verified that account is tagged and only has access to certain servers where ONLY people flagged as aimbotters can play...

 

that means that a NEW player would possible play a vet but at least they would be beaten fairly, not by hacks

[Ezodev]

Ah, I made a mistake. That was directed to ticklemyiguana.

 

About your idea, problem is that the population is very low. Amount of cheaters is not enough to fill the servers with them. So they would notice they were flagged, and just create new account. And change their IP, if they can.

Edited by Ezodev, 29 May 2016 - 09:33 PM.

[DemitronPrime]

Ah, I made a mistake. That was directed to ticklemyiguana.

 

About your idea, problem is that the population is very low. Amount of cheaters is not enough to fill the servers with them. So they would notice they were flagged, and just create new account. And change their IP, if they can.

 and it would happen again and again and surely they would get bored of it ...

[Ezodev]

Not if their goal is to kill the game, and it seems that's their goal. What's the point otherwise? It's not any challenge to play with aimbot and other cheats if you're competent(say 1800 MMR level without cheats). It's  not much more interactive thing to do than watching "let's plays".

 

Only explanation for cheating is wanting to piss off other people, or destroy the game.

[DemitronPrime]

real hard to piss people off when you cant play with them though...

 

I agree with you, dont get me wrong, i mean its a sad state but yeah, another good idea would be an INGAME report button that maybe triggered a server side check on the accused player, checking for any aimbots etc injected, etc etc

Edited by DemitronPrime, 29 May 2016 - 11:56 PM.

[nepacaka]

About your smurfing, I would say that it wasn't smurfing at all. If your 'smurf' account had higher MMR than your 'real' one, then I would name it 'alt' account, if not outright your 'main' one.

 

the reason, because this account has a random name everytime, and people can't see my mmr, and most of time they think than they play with a different player, because my name is always changed to another "recruit" in every match. 

 

i just want to say, than most of time peolpe called "a cheater" ordinary players who just better. somewtimes i called someone a cheatr too, despite than this guy probably is not a cheater xD

Edited by nepacaka, 30 May 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[HHJFTRU]

because my name is always changed to another "recruit" in every match. 

 

 

B...but how?

Spoiler

Belorussian hacker.

[HHJFTRU]

This is an illustration to the topic.   :)

[ticklemyiguana]

@ticklemyiguana

 

You mean that it could scare potential new players? As I said, chances of new player beating 2k+ MMR one are negligible. Chances of him doing that repeatedly are practically nil.

 

Or that it's hard to implement? It isn't. Maybe few person-workdays, spent mostly on figuring out good conditions/thresholds of ban.

I've introduced and taught two players that made it to 2000 MMR within 10 hours of playtime. Those are just two individuals that a single player happens to know personally. As of right now, both have left the game unfortunately, but the one with publicMMR has an MMR of 2320 with just over 1500 kills, and he was still rising. What metric would you suggest using that would prevent players that are good in similar games and have a competent teacher from being banned? (Not to mention, this player would have banned me as well, since you're recommending an IP ban, not just an account ban.) The feat can be replicated. So there's that. Auto-IP ban is the most over the top suggestion possible for this problem, and the particular version you've suggested would be something of a catastrophe.

 

The other factor at play is getting these false positives reversed which is... it's positively ludicrous. Even massive companies have a hard time doing this. Valve, a multibillion dollar company, takes about a week at minimum just to get a response from. Reloaded's turnaround time for a single response is closer to a month, granted, once you have their ear, the turnaround time lessens a bit - but the point stands. Ain't nobody got time for that. You say it "isn't hard", but reality differs widely from that statement.

 

Also, hehehe, the staff at Reloaded seriously would not be able to tell a cheater or smurf from a regular player - that being a comment on their experience with the game.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 May 2016 - 07:29 AM.

[nepacaka]

B...but how?

Spoiler

Belorussian hacker.

when in game was problem with servers (remember, some monts ago some people lost mechs parts and some have "mobi" instead berserk. 
at this time i trying make a new account with joke name related with one of our community player, and get error. than account was done and i got recruit acc. i think it is database error when you nickname contain 0 symbols. than game change it to recruit + random numbers

Edited by nepacaka, 30 May 2016 - 07:31 AM.

[nepacaka]

btw, it can be fun if instead of ban, cheater got special achievment like a "I see you", for example. and then server browser is restricted for you, and matchmaking always put you in servers where everyone is cheaters. i.e. you play only with another cheaters like "who cheats better" game mode. everyone happy!

[Aelita]

I don�t mind smurfs if they are transparent about it. The lack of solutions for cheaters on the other hand made me deinstall it 3 times already.

(i just keep coming back because i am an idiot)

Edited by Aelita, 30 May 2016 - 07:45 AM.

[nepacaka]

 

The lack of solutions for cheaters

 

brawler is a solution against cheaters. baba-ji solution... xD

Edited by nepacaka, 30 May 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Ezodev]

@ticklemyiguana

 

Okay, I didn't know that people like that exist, yet alone are so common that you know two of them.

 

Still, they wouldn't be able to do that in the first hour, right? So autoban could be restricted to people who spent less than 1 hour of active gameplay. Cheaters/smurfs would need to spend 1 hour playing badly before activating their cheats or playing at their level. And then they could get reported "manually". And then they would need to waste next hour.

 

But I guess that wouldn't deter most determined cheaters :(

[ticklemyiguana]

@ticklemyiguana

 

Okay, I didn't know that people like that exist, yet alone are so common that you know two of them.

 

Still, they wouldn't be able to do that in the first hour, right? So autoban could be restricted to people who spent less than 1 hour of active gameplay. Cheaters/smurfs would need to spend 1 hour playing badly before activating their cheats or playing at their level. And then they could get reported "manually". And then they would need to waste next hour.

 

But I guess that wouldn't deter most determined cheaters :(

 

Eh. It's a discussion that's been had a hundred times before. The real solution is just "more". More money, more employees, more support, more players. Unfortunately the game's not trending in that direction right now.

[FRX23]

Are you sure the pilot level is not considered at all in matchmaking ? only the MMR ?

Let me doubt of it.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

btw, it can be fun if instead of ban, cheater got special achievment like a "I see you", for example. and then server browser is restricted for you, and matchmaking always put you in servers where everyone is cheaters. i.e. you play only with another cheaters like "who cheats better" game mode. everyone happy!

 

Kinda like the Tour de France?

[Amidatelion]

As of right now, both have left the game unfortunately, but the one with publicMMR has an MMR of 2320 with just over 1500 kills, and he was still rising.

Show off. Best I ever managed was 2100 but at least he still plays. Sometimes.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

All my friends still race motorcycles.  If I race again (a possibility, but only lightweight/300cc classes) I wont have time for Hawken, or much of anything else.

[ticklemyiguana]

Show off. Best I ever managed was 2100 but at least he still plays. Sometimes.

Eh. They were both quite talented to begin with, and that one had seen me play and asked me questions many times before trying his hand, after which of course I was able to do the same for him explaining what was going on.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 May 2016 - 03:38 PM.

[Amidatelion]

All my friends still race motorcycles. If I race again (a possibility, but only lightweight/300cc classes) I wont have time for Hawken, or much of anything else.

Please don't blow out your knee and die.

[DemitronPrime]

-edited for better effect- Please don't take an arrow to the knee

[Guns_N_Rozer]

Are you sure the pilot level is not considered at all in matchmaking ? only the MMR ?

Let me doubt of it.

MMR

[MomOw]

As I stated before I have two issues with smurfs for the purpose of smurfing (and not made to be alternate account)

-> before the match : low MMR that screw the MM

-> after the match : low MMR / high score (underdog peanuts) that screw other MMR.

 

when smurfs grind up to level 25~30 fast enough and MMR fast enough to become alt, I have no issues with that. I don't mind playing with "bob" or "bill" callsign as long as matches are balanced.

[ATX22]

Whatever Reloaded does with Hawken, if anything, they'll still need to keep it relatively easy to create an account for Hawken as interest in this game hasn't exactly been increasing for the better part of a year.  

 

But what are they going to put their efforts into if they're working on Hawken?  How to keep people out?  Or into creating content for a game to actually draw people in?

[Hyginos]

I think it would be better to incentivize playing on a main account than it would be to punish playing on an alt. At the very least it would be cleaner to implement and manage.

 

Plenty of anti-cheat clients already exist, and most of them are not so primitive as to attempt to correlate good performance at low level with cheating. I'm sure reloaded can figure something out if they put in some effort, especially when the built in turn cap provides such a convenient method of detecting aimbots.

[StubbornPuppet]

I'm sure a great many of these excellent suggestions will make it into the Xbox One version of Hawken.

[ATX22]

I'm sure a great many of these excellent suggestions will make it into the Xbox One version of Hawken.

 

Nope, only the iphone app version.

[FRX23]

Every day is worse than the other.

The only wish i got now is that Hawken fall in public domain so we could setup private servers.

[ATX22]

Every day is worse than the other.

The only wish i got now is that Hawken fall in public domain so we could setup private servers.

Even that would be a temporary fix at best. Without an active and competent development team, you'd be prolonging the demise of Hawken at best. Provided the silence is broken over there at Reloaded and that they release some quality additions / changes to Hawken this game may yet turn around.

With the continued dev silence though (last a actual update was devoid of anything meaningful), I'm not holding my breath.