What does the Charge Cannon do? It just looks like a HEAT Cannon that shoots lightning.
Looks that way. No chain lightning effect or anything special to differentiate it from heat cannon at all other than it shoots a pretty lightning bolt. I can't even hear it making a unique charge-up sound (Or any charge-up sound at all? Am I just half-deaf?).
It's pretty hilarious that we've been waiting for the lightning cannon for literal years, and they just make it a heat cannon reskin (with sabot sounds?).
Oh god... Infil almost dead in one double shot. Talk about TTK. C05, what the hell is this?
We'll look at balancing based on player feedback. Unfortunately there's no complaints about it on console forums, so it's really hard to judge whether or not it's OP or not. We kind of rely on player feedback and internal stat numbers for that right now.
So it's a chargeable sabot with a lightning bolt animation.
to be fair i think its really cool, just, breacher, plus sniper rifle, it can do as much damage as a powershot ss off the bat, then refire the breacher. just a bit much in my opinion,
DeeRax likes this
"but the dead horse has been beaten so many times it's practically a pulpy mess in the barn by now."
to be fair i think its really cool, just, breacher, plus sniper rifle, it can do as much damage as a powershot ss off the bat, then refire the breacher. just a bit much in my opinion,
I think it's cool too, in principle. But I also think it had way more potential to be a truly unique weapon rather than a clever amalgamation of pre-existing weapons.
Wasted potential. Hawken's life story.
is that mean, that you just added pack of new console content to PC (just like we have console bralwer, and original). If yes, it is just mean that all my mech just was useless if you not rebalance then, because obvioulsly, the just worse with HP and some other stats if compared with G2 variant (like as a top-content mech)
i just highly disagree if you just "merged" two games. because, just have no idea why we need old mechs in game which are useless without rebalance in new gameplay. it will be just mechs for "nostalgy", not for real gameplay. my suggestion is still - return all MC-credits and HC-credits and wipe account, or just replaced our mechs with G2 variants, it is also can save your time and make PC update faster. because it is better than "not lost nothing, but getting account full of unplayable mechs, which can't play with new machines". it is like you give account with 0 mechs on it, and all of you money and time which we put in game is just wasted, bacause we need collect every G2 mech again.
Replacing our mechs with consoles G2 variants also can be good solution. you evade difference between consoles and PC, if just made our mechs "the same". so, we just have all identical, but don't have a new mechs like 36m, vytro, civ etc.
People actually spent money on this game - it would be a disservice if all of their hard work, time, and money just instantly disappeared, so we cannot wipe or change end products.
The solution I posted above is the best middle ground - you keep your old Mechs, which already have all their weapon, item, and internal unlocks. When a new player comes into Hawken, they can unlock the same weapon, item, and internal unlocks. That's the plan.
to be fair i think its really cool, just, breacher, plus sniper rifle, it can do as much damage as a powershot ss off the bat, then refire the breacher. just a bit much in my opinion,
This mech is insane; it's a mix of Sharpshooter and Pred on steroids. Breacher's arguably the strongest primary in the game, and this new cannon is a stronger, more accurate version of Sabot. This means you're doomed in almost any scenario in an A class and in most B classes. Don't forget that Breacher pierces shields and blockades, is great mid-range, awesome in CQC and okay long-range.
This mech's great in any scenario I can think of. Not cool.
Edited by DerMax, 23 October 2016 - 01:49 PM.
dorobo, Meraple, claisolais and 9 others like this
This mech is insane; it's a mix of Sharpshooter and Pred on steroids. Breacher's is arguably the strongest primary in the game, and this new cannon is a stronger, more accurate version of Sabot. This means you're doomed in almost any scenario in an A class and in most B classes. Don't forget that Breacher pierces shields and blockades, is great mid-range, awesome in CQC and okay long-range.
If it becomes an issue we'll simply adjust the Breacher for only the Vytro. We have the setup to be able to do that now.
Would've been neat to scrap the scope on the charge cannon, make it's primary fire weak but accurate short-range sustained lightning, and it's secondary firing a more accurate but weaker sabot shot lightning bolt (Along the lines of what it does now). Essentially a cross between a damage-only helix torch (primary fire) and the slug rifle/heat cannon (secondary fire), just with lightning bolt animations & sounds. To make it more interesting, keep the charge mechanic for the sniper mode, and add a similar charge mechanic to the torch mode (Including the heat gen); Hold m2 to charge, then release to fire a sustained arc of lightning that continues until the charge is depleted. It can even sort of "stick" to the target like the helix torch, I think that'd be appropriate. Middle mouse to switch between firing modes.
The funny part is that this would still be just a clever amalgamation of two pre-existing weapons, which is what you guys did anyways, just with two that are more appropriate for an electricity-based weapon, mechanically speaking.
In other words: Why was the charge cannon not just a giant mech arc welder like it should've been?
If it becomes an issue we'll simply adjust the Breacher for only the Vytro. We have the setup to be able to do that now.
How? You see, the problem with this mech is that its primary and secondary are incredibly accurate hitscan weapons. This means you can't dodge them. Your shield won't help. Nothing will help.
Against a competent pilot, there's no winning scenario: In corner play it'll easily outpoke you, and in open-air battle, it'll keep comfortable distance and outdps you effortlessly. And then there's the ability.
Do you know why Sharp's Sabot has got terrible accuracy while unscoped? It's so that it does not become too versatile. It has its role, which is neat. This mech is a master of all trades. Its role is "Terminator". And if the enemy team has a bunch of them... ugh...
Edited by DerMax, 23 October 2016 - 01:58 PM.
diablo878, Meraple, claisolais and 7 others like this
I suggest Reloaded's team to run designs by both the PC and console community before implementing them. You can catch unhealthy additions to Hawken's longevity before they are added into the game and before they cannot be removed without upsetting some players who enjoy the said design. This is probably a knee jerk reaction on my initial sight of this mech and its design, but I feel what I say should be taken into consideration for future additions. Also, the charge cannon (lightning gun?) doesn't carry a lot of weight when it fires I feel.
How? You see, the problem with this mech is that its primary and secondary are incredibly accurate hitscan weapons. This means you can't dodge them. Your shield won't help. Nothing will help.
Against a competent pilot, there's no winning scenario: In corner play it'll easily outpoke you, and in open-air battle, it'll keep comfortable distance and outdps you effortlessly.
Do you know why Sharp's Sabot has got terrible accuracy while unscoped? It's so that it does not become too versatile. It has its role, which is neat. This mech is a master of all trades. Its role is "Terminator". And if the enemy team has a bunch of them... ugh...
The solution is to nerf the hitscan weapons' effective range and damage potential. Up the heat generation rate, slow the heat decrease rate on the weapons so you are punished for missing. All of which we can do on the fly. Yes it'd make it in practice a lot less effective, but it's better than having it in its current two-shot form. I watched the video linked above, I see exactly what you're seeing, and I think that would make the combination less deadly.
I suggest Reloaded's team to run designs by both the PC and console community before implementing them. You can catch unhealthy additions to Hawken's longevity before they are added into the game and before they cannot be removed without upsetting some players who enjoy the said design. This is probably a knee jerk reaction on my initial sight of this mech and its design, but I feel what I say should be taken into consideration for future additions. Also, the charge cannon (lightning gun?) doesn't carry a lot of weight when it fires I feel.
Personally, and I can't speak for everyone, I would rather introduce something and upset a few people using something they know is overpowered and is pending a nerf, than to upset the rest of the community that is outcrying for that nerf to happen. Especially when the nerf itself takes maybe 5 minutes at most to take effect.
Personally, and I can't speak for everyone, I would rather introduce something and upset a few people using something they know is overpowered and is pending a nerf, than to upset the rest of the community that is outcrying for that nerf to happen. Especially when the nerf itself takes maybe 5 minutes at most to take effect.
It's not about just adjusting its damage & heat gen. It's that its entire design is flawed.
You guys essentially just combined two of the best mechs into one even better mech. Wat?
There is no longer a point to sharpshooter (or reaper) or predator (Or infiltrator, to a lesser extent). With one mech, you completely outdated 4 pre-existing mechs. Even with adjusted stats, this thing will always be better than any of the other 4.
WHY NOT MAKE SOMETHING UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT?
Edited by DeeRax, 23 October 2016 - 02:52 PM.
claisolais, -Tj-, DieselCat and 2 others like this
There is no longer a point to sharpshooter (or reaper) or predator (Or infiltrator, to a lesser extent). With one mech, you completely outdated 4 pre-existing mechs. Even with adjusted stats, this thing will always be better than any of the other 4.
WHY NOT MAKE SOMETHING UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT?
It's not completely 'invalidating' those Mechs, especially if the stats are adjusted to make those other 4 Mechs viable in comparison to this one. I don't think this thing should be able to two shot, and we can adjust that Mech's breacher without affecting the sharpshooter or any other of the long-range Mechs.
Let me challenge you with this question: If you were in my situation - what would you do to fix it?
WHY NOT MAKE SOMETHING UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT?
There's more unique mechs coming in the future beyond weapon choices and loadout choices.
Let me challenge you with this question: If you were in my situation - what would you do to fix it?
Well:
Would've been neat to scrap the scope on the charge cannon, make it's primary fire weak but accurate short-range sustained lightning, and it's secondary firing a more accurate but weaker sabot shot lightning bolt (Along the lines of what it does now). Essentially a cross between a damage-only helix torch (primary fire) and the slug rifle/heat cannon (secondary fire), just with lightning bolt animations & sounds. To make it more interesting, keep the charge mechanic for the sniper mode, and add a similar charge mechanic to the torch mode (Including the heat gen); Hold m2 to charge, then release to fire a sustained arc of lightning that continues until the charge is depleted. It can even sort of "stick" to the target like the helix torch, I think that'd be appropriate. Middle mouse to switch between firing modes.
Also replace breacher with heat cannon or t-32 bolt.
All of this would better serve its intended role as a disruptor mech (Which I assume is implied by the fact that you should cloak and drop that neat electricity turret in the middle of a big group).
(Also rename the mech to "Disruptor.")
The breacher being the best primary in the game and its secondary just being a breacher-sabot hybrid with the sharpshooter ability and scoped-accuracy built into the weapon. Adjusting stats will never fix this, unless those stats are nerfed into oblivion. And by then what was ever the point?
Also replace breacher with heat cannon or t-32 bolt.
All of this would better serve its intended role as a disruptor mech.
(Also rename it "Disruptor.")
(Sry for double-post)
I think this is actually a good idea. I'll talk it over with the person who designed this Mech and make sure it's not going to conflict with any upcoming changes.
I'll look into talking with the team about what we can do about the loadout. I'd prefer for some people that actually have played the console game to give their feedback as well.
The breacher being the best primary in the game and its secondary just being a breacher-sabot hybrid with the sharpshooter ability and scoped-accuracy built into the weapon. Adjusting stats will never fix this, unless those stats are nerfed into oblivion. And by then what was ever the point?
Could always give it a unique ability if we nerf it into oblivion. That may be more do-able than changing out everyone's weapons in their inventories.
If it becomes an issue we'll simply adjust the Breacher for only the Vytro. We have the setup to be able to do that now.
As an aside, you'd have to rename the breacher on vytro in order to differentiate it from the predator's breacher. Similar with G2Raider/Marauder and G2Assault, with the XT weapons. It's to my understanding that the old devs gave the XT designation internally in order to make stat changes to the weapons without affecting other mechs while maintaining the weapon's mechanics. While this may not be the case anymore internally, Weapons that are mechanically identical but statistically different will inevitably cause confusion. A different name will be the easiest way to fix it.
Just don't make it a lame name :)
Edited by Sriracha_Sauce, 23 October 2016 - 03:04 PM.
As an aside, you'd have to rename the breacher on vytro in order to differentiate it from the predator's breacher. Similar with G2Raider/Marauder and G2Assault, with the XT weapons. It's to my understanding that the old devs gave the XT designation internally in order to make stat changes to the weapons without affecting other mechs while maintaining the weapon's mechanics.
As an aside, you'd have to rename the breacher on vytro in order to differentiate it from the predator's breacher. Similar with G2Raider/Marauder and G2Assault, with the XT weapons. It's to my understanding that the old devs gave the XT designation internally in order to make stat changes to the weapons without affecting other mechs while maintaining the weapon's mechanics.
Just don't make it a lame name :)
We actually have something set up in the database that can do the on-the-fly changes (ie; Breacher Y, Breacher X, Breacher (base)) unlike the XT designation which was just another weapon type entirely. I think for clarification purposes we should maybe add names to them, especially when we start adding more weapons in the future.
Also, I'd like to thank you guys for staying constructive with your feedback. Really appreciate it and it'll help us make decisions better.
Holy Fuzzy Bunny, the Vytro does as much if not better damage than my G2raider. Looks like it's the end for my G2R career, hello Vytro, my new child. But seriously though, that thing looks like it's going to dominate a lot of mech classes in this game. Rip Sharpshooters, ouch. Jesus that thing killed that scout faster than my G2R can...but with range.....
Edited by Onstrava, 23 October 2016 - 04:20 PM.
diablo878, DeeRax, onedemnoobs and 1 other like this
Hold on to the things you care about most, even if others see it as insignificant..If you can't be true to yourself, are you really living?
Holy Fuzzy Bunny, the Vytro does as much if not better than my G2raider. Looks like it's the end for my G2R career, hello Vytro, my new child. But seriously though, that thing looks like it's going to dominate a lot of mech classes in this game. Rip Sharpshooters, ouch.
I agree...
sadly this mech has just trumped burst damage for Pred, g2 Raider, eoc raider too by the looks of it...
the only redeeming factor i have noticed it is overheating alot, due to holding right trigger generating heat while charging...
why you need brawler, g2, ss, raider, which are weak, have a problems with range, slow, etc. if you can use vytro which never miss a deal much more damage, let say, flak-brawler, but from any distance when brawler can do something only from 40m.
it is actually not a problem, cuz it is p2w.
rip competitive, logic and balance.
And while you, the devs, tweak the Charge cannon's stats, please have a look at improving its audio presentation as well. Considering the posted video in this thread, there is no sound when this weapon is being charged. It has a nice animation, but no sound, breaking the immersion. There is already a repair drone which uses electricity for repairing, and has a nice "buzzing" sounds while at it. Maybe use those as a template and tweak them to not sound the same, when the weapon is charged. Although I would much rather prefer if you could bring out some original sounds for new weapons, this might be a quick solution.
I think this is actually a good idea. I'll talk it over with the person who designed this Mech and make sure it's not going to conflict with any upcoming changes.
I'll look into talking with the team about what we can do about the loadout. I'd prefer for some people that actually have played the console game to give their feedback as well.
Good job. No need to nerf it. Just do Breacher one shooting mode - the shotgun slightly reduce damage, increase the rate of fire. By the way, it would be possible to think about charging a new weapon mode. For example, to introduce a limited range of fire in an uncharged state.
PS. Make the same heat (Permanent overheating weapons) while keeping the a loaded weapon to a Heat canon.
Edited by Anichkov3, 24 October 2016 - 01:18 AM.
http://www.hawken.ru- ???? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? (Website of the Russian community)
btw, i like idea when you weapon added heat while you charging it.
but i feel that this energo weapon with TOW or GL on b-class can be much better. the same like heat+tow on B, but just with different heat mechanics, like some tweak for these sort of weapons.
I've noticed a few Vytro videos....it's OP, I guess?
Oh god... Infil almost dead in one double shot. Talk about TTK. C05, what the hell is this?
First off, IMO the new weapon is kind of ugly; specifically the blue glow. Similar to that energy skin. Second off, did I see correctly that heat builds while just charging this new weapon? I thought I saw that in the video, but I saw nothing about that in this thread (may have just missed it). If I saw the video correctly that has the potential to make this mech easily balanceable(between uncharged shot dmg, charge rate, and heat gain during charge rate). Point is that you have numbers you can tweak there and that heat gain while holding weapon charged is a new mechanic with a lot of potential.
EDIT: Rewatched, heat gain during charge is totally a thing. Am I fuzzing going crazy? How has no one mentioned that
EDIT2: Reread comments, I see that the heat gen is mentioned, but how is that not more of a talking point? Also I think the heat dissipation might be making this mech too strong rn. Cease charging(via firing) and you go from full heat to half. That could be nerfed. Also the extra gauge on the right of the reticle is ugly (imo). Poor color choices perhaps.
EDIT3: I've mostly been focusing on the new secondary thus far but as others have mentioned breacher is a bad idea here. Breacher + scope is for starters not a good idea (breach doesn't need a dmg or accuracy boost)
EDIT4: Yeah that burst dmg is asinine. Again heat dispersion/gain could be a factor in balancing. Also Projectile speed on the secondary should be a thing. Right now it looks like breacher and new weapon hit close to simultaneously, and isn't breacher hitscan?
Edited by crockrocket, 24 October 2016 - 02:03 AM.
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