144 replies to this topic

[Anichkov3]

Yeah, I think swapping Breacher for HEAT cannon should do the trick.

No. HEAT Cannon has no place in the B-class.

[crockrocket]

No. HEAT Cannon has no place in the B-class.

 

Why?

[nepacaka]

Why?

bacoz

[nepacaka]

i thinking moar. my conclusion is - vytro can be normal on PC (maybe with little tweaking). but it is all based on game mode. his HP is low, dodge is low, boost speed is low, all of he has - great alphastrike and 100% acuraccy. 
he actually sux by charging time, and if crazy-berserk jump on it, he probably die before he can shooting second time, but if vytro will be charged in this moment, berserk just got combo shot, and than breacher and have a "fiasco".

this mech is like a "KV-2" in "World of Tonks" game. it sux by many parameters, but it have fearful alpha strike, and rip half of face if you see at him. probably, this mech was not super strong, but it can be annoying if you play on a-class and than bam, you ded. 
this mech can be a literally scary good "executioneer"

it is also feel like current G2R. no compromise, the same sux by all parameters, but have a one big advantage (actually two, walking speed + alpha), and you should deal with it. only one thing i not very like, that vytro can shoot from long range (if compared with G2). i'm gon't very love this conception like "all or nothing" but...it is just a little bad the same like raider, when you got two very positive advantages, and you negative doesn't mean nothing. 
some example:
- great alpha + great speed (who care about HP if you kill everyone with oneshot and nobody can't runaway from you)
- great HP + great dps ( who care about speed if u have all what you need)
- great speed + great HP (who care about damage, if you just can attack when your HP is higher, and enemy don't have time to kill u or runaway from u)
etc.

also feel, this mech probably will be very sux on open maps (LE, bunk) if you are not cyber-sport and don't have 100% accuracy to playing against 6 sasalts, you have a problem, cuz you overheat and dps sux. But can only imagine how this thing can shread targets which play more or less bad, and not use dodges (but who care about dodges, if you weapon not miss? xD), or boost, and are easily target for vytro. they probably don't deserve the rekt.


i also feel that vytro shouldn't have a sharpshooter crosshair. because he is not sharpshooter.

also, just imagine IT with current scanner :P

Edited by nepacaka, 24 October 2016 - 02:46 AM.

[dorobo]

It looks like it's gonna fall off any second. Passing raider with ability on would break that thing off without even noticing it.

 

edit: the gun i mean the gun is wobbly and fragile looking

Edited by dorobo, 24 October 2016 - 06:10 AM.

[nepacaka]

It looks like it's gonna fall off any second. Passing raider with ability on would break that thing off without even noticing it.

raider on bunker, yep, 100% rekt vytro. especially while ability :D
but anyway, vytro can be a real a-class annihilator. if scout have a chance to evade MIRV by some reasons (skill, miss, ping, something else), they can't safe youself from this secondary.
 

Edited by nepacaka, 24 October 2016 - 02:57 AM.

[Morquedeas]

I'm not really defending the Vytro or anything, but maybe, just maybe, we should wait a little bit longer to decide if it's broken or not?

 

I mean everyone spazzing over 9 minutes of video does not really help Reloaded.  The guy didn't even use his ability once, and how well someone does on consoles is pretty irrelevant.  They need us to give educated solutions, not kneejerk ideas.  Let's wait for some hard data, I expect more from you guys.

 

P.S. Despite all that, my kneejerk opinion is that heat cannon would be better for it than breacher.

[nepacaka]

I think that we have already come to the conclusion that this mech is not imba, because the raider will demolish it as an armored train knocks down unwary moose on the rails.

my own conclusion not based on how this guy in video playing, or on his skill, it is only about how people CAN play on PC with keybord+mouse. because if he trying play like this on PC, he will die faster than 2.43 second.

only one thing which i can blame devs again, is the mech picture still have different weapons (TOW+AR) than the real mech have. it is fail again. at least, he have arms... it is good progress. xD

Edited by nepacaka, 24 October 2016 - 04:19 AM.

[DerMax]

I think that we have already come to the conclusion that this mech is not imba [...]

Who "we"?

[dorobo]

 

[nepacaka]

Who "we"?

me and babaji, lel =)

anyway, this mech better than for example 36m with 0 speed turret, or Charge with invulnerability, not beacause they are imba or weak, or what else they can be, just because RLD do something without dual weilding.

Edited by nepacaka, 24 October 2016 - 05:54 AM.

[Sriracha_Sauce]

Vytro is has potential I think

 

Breacher imo should stay on the Predator, but if it does end up staying with Vytro give it different stats and a different name, like KE-Breacher like KE-Sabot on Reaper or something (although I hope it's something creative nonetheless)

 

I'd rather see the Charge Cannon do some DoT or something, the same sound bit as the Sabot is annoying but that can be fixed in the future (and I hope it will), as for how the weapon functions now, I like the overcharge thing causes a heat buildup, I think that's pretty cool imo, but needs to be more than a glowy looking Sabot rifle, I also think it shouldn't get zoom. Vytro doesn't seem like a dedicated sniping mech especially with the Breacher being a close range weapon and all, middle mouse button could be remapped to a really unique function of the Charge cannon, maybe you land the charge cannon shot, it deals low impact damage but the electricity of the weapon will cause some DoT or some other effect to the mech it hit.

 

As always I think this is the first "good" mech with potential RLD has released even if they're old assets because this at least is more unique than random dual weapon mech, and has a new weapon

Edited by Sriracha_Sauce, 24 October 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[wischatesjesus]

So what was wrong with the normal charge bar that sits inside of the heat bar? What prompted RLD to draw one in ms paint just for the charge cannon instead of using the one that is used for every other weapon in the game?

 

EDIT:

Does that bar obey custom HUD colors?

 

All in all though I am happy to see that it isn't another bloody dual weapon mech that looks like it was designed by throwing darts at a board covered in sticky notes with all the old weapons and abilities written on them. The charge cannon doesn't seem inherently broken in itself.

 

Would be nice to fix the naming scheme, as mentioned previously both in this thread and elsewhere. I repeat my suggestions:

• 36M - Suppressor
• Civ - Trapper
• Nief - I can't really think of one that isn't at least a bit offensive
• Charge -  this one is good, though charge is now a mech and a weapon. Maybe "Charger".
• Vytro - Shocker, Conductor, Breaker

Edited by wischatesjesus, 24 October 2016 - 07:37 AM.

[MomOw]

• 36M - Supressor
• Civ - Trapper
• Nief - I can't really think of one that isn't at least a bit offensive
• Charge -  this one is good, though charge is now a mech and a weapon. Maybe "Charger".
• Vytro - Shocker, Conductor, Breaker

 

+1

 

Nief... nerfed ? otherwise : shooter something

 

 

On a side note, rather than dual weilding, why not a unique bigger weapon and using the second arm as a pod for a utility ability ?

 

I'd like a reaper with :

- a KE-Sabot that could reach a DPS slightly higher than slug+actual KE sabot (basically just increase the KE-Sabot rof to ~1.5)

and

- a radar pod mounted on the other arm.

 

This mech could have a reduced scanner range of 105m (same as berzerker, compared to 135m actually) that would increase up to 150m with the ability (same as actual G2R)

 

This would be fun, different, and not imbalanced.

Edited by MomOw, 24 October 2016 - 09:01 AM.

[Onstrava]

I say leave the mech alone until further testing is needed, release it as is for the PC community. The reason I say that is that PC players tend to move a lot more fluently than console ones and no don't try to argue this, you already lost. Who knows maybe this thing is perfect the way it is, high risk, high reward. Just give it so someone who has patients, a little aim, and doesn't boost very often; alpha striker play style and let the mech do the rest. *On a side note all I can say is that this things damage is delicious and while you guys/girls try to figure out ways to counter this thing, I have a build I think will be fun for this thing, but we'll see.

[StubbornPuppet]

My 2�

Just because there is one mech which can beat another, doesn't mean that the other is balanced. The comments about how this new Vytro isn't OP/is balanced... just because a Raider can beat it... only means that a Raider can beat it.
To me, balance in Hawken means that every mech has about an equal chance overall of beating any other mech in battle. Sure, depending on whether you are in CQ or long-range, with cover or without, should absolutely play a role... but that's where pilot situational awareness comes in. But, again, just because there is one mech out there which can beat a newly introduced mech really doesn't tell me the new mech is balanced.

[americanbrit14]

also CZeroFive, tell someone that there seems to be a bit of an animation skip after the gun has fired. It seems to just snap back into place like if the previous animation had ended and all they could do was just revert it back to its default state.

 

It makes it look really sloppy

Edited by americanbrit14, 24 October 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[1uster]

 

Also the extra gauge on the right of the reticle is ugly (imo). Poor color choices perhaps.

 

This and the copied sound are at least for me the two major signals that this thing, like a lot of the console stuff, is rushed out. There was no time for such details.

We can fix it later. Who cares for immersion. We need content, content, content.

Developers, developers, developers?

Hello? Anybody home? Think McFly!

 

I prefer to wait for real good content than to play with the half baked fuzzy bunny which of course the devs can nerf but this won't change the design flaws like this lovely community pointed out already.

 

The idea that a charged weapon generates heat is a good one, I have to admit. The rest is fuzzy bunny.

[CZeroFive]

This and the copied sound are at least for me the two major signals that this thing, like a lot of the console stuff, is rushed out. There was no time for such details.

We can fix it later. Who cares for immersion. We need content, content, content.

Developers, developers, developers?

Hello? Anybody home? Think McFly!

 

I prefer to wait for real good content than to play with the half baked fuzzy bunny which of course the devs can nerf but this won't change the design flaws like this lovely community pointed out already.

 

The idea that a charged weapon generates heat is a good one, I have to admit. The rest is fuzzy bunny.

 

We're sorry you feel this way about the work we put into the game. I can't change your opinion and I won't defend nor attack our team's work. If you would like to be constructive with your feedback, provide examples of the design flaws that you don't like instead of saying 'the ones the lovely community pointed out'.

 

It's much easier to wade through feedback and make an accurate decision when actual feedback is provided by multiple people. And the general consensus I've seen so far is we have to adjust the heat generation on charging the weapon. Telling us to do a better job doesn't help us any.

 

 

also CZeroFive, tell someone that there seems to be a bit of an animation skip after the gun has fired. It seems to just snap back into place like if the previous animation had ended and all they could do was just revert it back to its default state.

 

It makes it look really sloppy

 

I'll mention that to the team. Thanks for reporting that.

[EM1O]

C05:  kudos for this thread.  there has been more enlightenment, explanation of "how stuff works" in the Howken dev world, and just plain up-front Communication with us--be it fanboy or troll, i gather that a bit of sadly-lacking hope and enthusiasm has been generated.

Not to create any internal friction, but this method of Dev Updating just gave me more info on how y'all operate than anything before this. 

Now just keep it up!

[CZeroFive]

C05:  kudos for this thread.  there has been more enlightenment, explanation of "how stuff works" in the Howken dev world, and just plain up-front Communication with us--be it fanboy or troll, i gather that a bit of sadly-lacking hope and enthusiasm has been generated.

Not to create any internal friction, but this method of Dev Updating just gave me more info on how y'all operate than anything before this. 

Now just keep it up!

 

Hopefully have a bit more details to share on upcoming content soon. And my intention is that communication will continue when we can... there's no reason for it not to.

[1uster]

We're sorry you feel this way about the work we put into the game. I can't change your opinion and I won't defend nor attack our team's work. If you would like to be constructive with your feedback, provide examples of the design flaws that you don't like instead of saying 'the ones the lovely community pointed out'.

 

Make the weapon round and complete before releasing it. I mean c'mon, visually this weapon is very interesting and it's adding something to the game. Also the heat generating charge state is a cool thing. But skipping the unique sound? That's more then 50 % of the weapon. Yeah. You read correctly. Sound is that important. Nobody looks at the weapon when he is in battlefield but everybody on battlefield will hear the sound. So it's not only in an artistic way important but also gameplaywise because when he charges, enemies around can hear it and know they will get killed soon from an op mech.

 

Integrate the charge / heat state graph into the interface. For real, not the Excel95 look.

 

DerMax pointed out beautifully to you the major design flaws and that's the reason I don't write almost the same again. But if you want I and all the others forum-readers-and-sometimes-posters can quote the stuff (I) liked about his analysis instead of liking his posts.

 

Sorry for the saltyness but I honestly don't have much hope that the whole thing (game) will come to an happy "end". People like Nepacaka or DerMax are giving very good input to you. I just come here to say: Listen to them. These are your best "playtesters" you can have!

I understand the positon of your team is not an easy one but on the other hand - the pc version is balance wise, gameplay wise, visually and in the sound department a decent product. Some aspects had better shapes (sound was better in the old days) but in the end you have a very complete game in your hands. What I see is, you throwing away big parts of it like little children who aren't aware that's an old Rolls Royce you are "servicing". It hurts.

[Chaplain5]

Just my thoughts on the Vytro, if I may:

 

I understand where everyone is coming from about the high damage output. But I think that we might be overlooking a few major weaknesses:

 

1. Most importantly, this thing is really fragile. I mean really. At 455 health, it's as weak as the Sharpshooter. This matters, because the Sharpshooter has the advantage of being able to stand off at a huge distance. The Vytro's Charge Cannon may have range and accuracy, but along with the Breacher... It's probably not going to be a really truly long-range mech. As we saw in the videos, it was getting up close - where that low health will work against it.

 

2. The cloak - it actually has the weaknesses of both the Infiltrator cloak and the Predator cloak. It uses fuel like the Infil and shooting/dodging breaks cloak like the Pred. This will make a difference. It's not going to make up for the low health as much as the Infil and Pred's abilities do. On a side note, I actually like this, because it fits with the "Sentium knock-off" lore. A knock-off stealth ability should be weaker.

 

3. Heat generation - I could be wrong, but it looked to me like the Charge Cannon generates some serious heat.

 

 

In short, I know that this mech does a lot of damage - maybe they could nerf that a bit - but we have to realize that it's also going to be really fragile. High overheat risk, low health, and a weaker cloaking ability all contribute to this.

 

So, thanks a ton CZeroFive. I've been really wowed by how much you're interacting with us, and I appreciate that you're willing to put up with criticism. Grit, man - you've got it. :D

[Chaplain5]

Also, I've been waiting to say this for a while. I mean, I think a few folks get this already, and I'm not a guy for flame wars, but this has been irking me.

 

So here goes:

 

Guys, don't you think that the best way to get the Hawken that we want would be to, hmm I don't know, maybe treat the devs like real people? Their purpose on Earth is not to churn out entertainment for you. I mean they're people, for fuzzy bunny's sake. It's just a video game, why has that become more important to us than common courtesy???

 

Reloaded took on a financially unrewarding game. They're struggling to make ends meet and figure out a years-old code base, and when they finally get something to work, they have to deal with everyone whining about how they want it different. They're under immense strain.

 

Hey, if you want it to be better, dump money into it. Buy Meteor credits. I don't have much money to spend myself... but a lot of people seem to have this entitlement complex, acting like the devs exist to serve them.

 

TL;DR: Stop trash-talking Reloaded and your patient community guy, CZeroFive, and start treating them with charity. And give them your money if you're really impatient.

 

 

 

All right, that was my rant. Sorry. 

[DeeRax]

-snip-

 

Which MechMod are you again?
 

 

 

And the general consensus I've seen so far is we have to adjust the heat generation on charging the weapon. Telling us to do a better job doesn't help us any.

Is that actually the consensus? I wasn't aware. Seems to me the one thing most folks sort of agree on here is ditching the breacher for something else (probably heat cannon), and getting rid of the scope.

Edited by DeeRax, 26 October 2016 - 07:27 AM.

[DerMax]

I think some people have misinterpreted my posts, so I'm inclined to clarify:

 

Vytro being OP is not a problem. You can always play around the numbers and make it palatable. The actual problem, as I see it, is three-fold:

 

1. As opposed to literally every other mech in the game, Vytro has no dedicated role. Just take a look at some of the recent mechs:

 

- Nief is for open-field suppression

- 36M is for area denial + holding a tactical point + suppression

- Civ is for area denial via laying mines (good for siege mode) + ambushing low-hp mechs

- Charge is for harassing (fantastic counter to mechs with AOE weapons, because they damage themselves in CQC) and chasing lit enemies (because it's fast)

 

What's Vytro role? It doesn't have one. Or rather, it plays several roles (long-range + suppression + ambushing + fighter) but doesn't have its own.

 

2. Vytro has no weaknesses besides its low health pool.

 

- Nief is terrible in CQC

- 36M can't move in the siege mode, which makes it an easy target if caught off-guard

- Civ is bad against fast-moving and aerial targets

- Charge can't do anything outside CQC

 

Vytro, on the other hand, is good in CQC, good mid-range and okay long-range. It's good in corner play and in open-air fights. It's not even than bad against the blitzing raider if you land your shots first (which is not that difficult even) and then add uncharged breachers. Vytro needs a weakness.

 

3. Most important, Vytro is fun to play but not fun to play against. Fighting a mech whose primary and secondary are hitscan and almost 100% accurate is just not fun, because if your opponent is competent, no amount of maneuvering will make any difference. Dodge, jump and boost all you want -- you're getting that damage anyway.

 

To sum up, I think this mech needs its dedicated role on the battlefield, a weakness and some inaccuracy to make it a great addition to the game.

[DeeRax]

-snip-

Would you say that its primary weapon (breacher) is a major contributing factor to those good points you listed?

[DerMax]

Would you say that its primary weapon (breacher) is a major contributing factor to those good points you listed?

Absolutely.

[Sriracha_Sauce]

Give Vytro EOC Repeater and change Charge Cannon to some sort of AoE (or DoT) electric shock shot and it can be some sort of grouping disruptor. Some sort of weird alternate illegitimate child of Infil and Pred. Also no scope on Vytro please

Edited by Sriracha_Sauce, 26 October 2016 - 08:40 AM.

[EM1O]

Breacher. 

its attributes are what makes a Predator truly nasty in cqc, and S'prize, Mudderfugger!! in cross-map hits or through-the-dethball "spear-fishing". it's a love/hate thing, i guess.  forget the flak and ticky-tac guns.

and include a scoped hit-scan 100% butt-smacker secondary?

yeh, Breacher ftw!

[DeeRax]

Breacher. 

its attributes are what makes a Predator truly nasty in cqc, and S'prize, Mudderfugger!! in cross-map hits or through-the-dethball "spear-fishing". it's a love/hate thing, i guess.  forget the flak and ticky-tac guns.

and include a scoped hit-scan 100% butt-smacker secondary?

yeh, Breacher ftw!

I mean, yeh. Breacher is awesome. But it was really only meant to be on Pred, I think, that's the main thing here. Putting it on something whose secondary is a breacher/sabot hybrid, plus giving it a scope, is going way overboard.
 

 

Give Vytro EOC Repeater and change Charge Cannon to some sort of AoE (or DoT) electric shock shot and it can be some sort of grouping disruptor. Some sort of weird alternate illegitimate child of Infil and Pred. Also no scope on Vytro please

Nice idea. I'd personally prefer heat cannon to EOC-R for a more direct approach, but the role would be similar.

This thing seems like it wants to be a mid-range specialist with some long-range punch, but (Like DerMax has said a few times) the breacher just makes it too good at any range.

 

-Heat Cannon or EOC-R would put it firmly in the mid-to-long-range role, while keeping enough cqc capability to keep its sort of "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" thing it has going on right now (If that is the devs' intent. Seems like it is); Whereas breacher just makes it a master-of-everything.

 

-Alternatively, for a stricter jack-of-all-trades/mid-range specialist feel, replace breacher with T-32 bolt; Now you have something that's sort of awkward at most ranges (bolt is extremely close-range, charge cannon is mostly a long-range weapon), but can really excel in specific circumstances (That sweet spot between cqc and mid-range), while still being able to harass (i.e. "disrupt") at either long or close range, as opposed to straight-up assassinate. This combo strikes me as something that'd be weird yet a lot of fun. Maybe still on the strong side in the right hands, since it still has two hitscan weapons.

Any of those three weapons also still play around with a "charging" mechanic that compliments the charge cannon, same way breacher does.

-Also, get rid of the scope! Give the charge cannon a unique secondary firing option!! Or some neat effect! PLS!!! Charge Cannon can be way cooler than just a lightning sniper rifle! There are already some cool suggestions in this thread alone, and multiple past threads solely about this weapon.

TL;DR: If this mech's intended role is truly as a disruption/harassing mech, then give it weapons that compliment that role, because breacher + a sniper rifle makes it an all-range assassination mech. We already have a bunch of assassin mechs already, let's instead try to break some new ground here. I'm even OK with this mech being just another stealth mech, as long as it has a different role than the two stealth mechs we have already. As it currently stands, though, it not only fills the same role, it fills it a lot better than the other two in most circumstances. IMO simply changing its primary (And playing around with some extra utility for its secondary) would be a more elegant fix than tweaking numbers on a weapon it probably shouldn't have in the first place (For fuzzy bunny's sake, leave breacher on Pred. Breacher and wallhax is Pred's special thing, leave it alone.)

Edited by DeeRax, 26 October 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Silverfire]

I wouldn't mind seeing Vytro's ability completely drop the visual stealth, but give it total and complete radar invisibility for x amount of time even on boosting and firing.

[DeeRax]

I wouldn't mind seeing Vytro's ability completely drop the visual stealth, but give it total and complete radar invisibility for x amount of time even on boosting and firing.

 

I would love this so much, actually. A TRUE stealth mech.
(I assume invisibility to scanners is also implied).

[PoopSlinger]

Lightning Cannon looks cool as hell.  Balance can come at any time through any number of tweaks.  Having something that looks sweet and is fun to play with is #1 priority.

 

Which leads me to asking why match it with another hitscan charge weapon? They both seem to be functionally the same thing.

[crockrocket]

 

 

Is that actually the consensus? I wasn't aware. Seems to me the one thing most folks sort of agree on here is ditching the breacher for something else (probably heat cannon), and getting rid of the scope.

 

Personally I thought that adjusting heat generation and dispersion was a good way to go. However, I would also support swapping out breacher (for one thing it's a cool unique weapon on pred right now).

[Chaplain5]

Also I am not a mechmod, DeeRax.

 

I'm not saying that everything in Hawken is all perfect. Hawken has problems.

 

But I'm saying that we, the community, need to treat the devs considerately.

[CZeroFive]

 

Also I am not a mechmod, DeeRax.

 

I'm not saying that everything in Hawken is all perfect. Hawken has problems.

 

But I'm saying that we, the community, need to treat the devs considerately.

 

 

We're doing alright with the feedback. This community is vocal and passionate about the game. It's really hard for everyone to give us feedback on design when they aren't being honest with us.

[6ixxer]

+1 for changing breacher to heat cannon.

still has close range and long range, and can benefit from the scopability of the secondary.

Might need to lower the damage on the secondary if the combo appears op.

projectile damage and splash will change its ability in cqc and against flyers by not having two hitscans.

[ARCH3TYP3]

At my experience level, a B mech with heat cannon sounds a little wonky. T32 sounds more intuitively appropriate.
Of course, C05 did indicate that they can tweak on the fly, which may make it a non-issue.

[wischatesjesus]

I wonder what we will get for Vytro alternate primaries, assuming that happens. As mentioned above breacher seems a bit generous.

 

I'd like to see HEAT, Slug, EOCR, or maybe even revgl.

 

The thing is we don't really have any mechs with big-punch secondaries that are hitscan and accurate at mid-close range without a scope,  save for dual weapon numpty mechs. Pred comes the closest by switching which hand it's 'secondary' is on. I think the community's guess as to how it plays is pretty good, but none of us have actually used a charge cannon.

 

Are there numbers available for actual min/max damage, falloff, recycle time, heat rate, etc on the Charge cannon? Can it splash self damage?