118 replies to this topic

[ticklemyiguana]

Could the Charger C class mech idea go under stretchy? and the Damper internal.

 

https://community.pl...h-idea-charger/

 

The speed debuff received some pushback as it would potentially be OP against A class.

I think it is a solid concept that just needs balance.

 

It was followed with an idea for a Damper internal that could be 2-3-4 slot and mitigate the effect of all debuff weapons (the suggested Charger speed debuff, and also the Redox damage vulnerability and the Bear-Mama heating debuff)

 

EDIT: Another scanner suggestion that isn't listed is to make it pulse at 3sec intervals instead of constant visibility.

 

It's not not a solid concept. You're right, it will definitely need balance, but the main reason I'm hesitant to put it on the list is because that particular mechanic of a speed debuff is seen in quite a few games (think CS, where getting shot causes you to slow down). It's likely to have been considered at some length by developers, and I don't believe it fulfills Josh's request.

 

However I did add the scanner suggestion.

 

 

Yes to all of this, though personal comments include

 

T32 on G2R has a bug where it fires blanks independent of input, showing on radar, and doing no damage.

 

Incini, perhaps in an effort to change the weapons, change how they interact with the SAARE, have one be a flamethrower range of a tech beam that applies a small damage over time and a moderate amount of heat to target.

 

Hellfires, i feel the laser guide would be a good new weapon, hellfires could use a dumbfire boost, such as flight speed, though they need a slight damage boost, as of now they are the only secondary that cant destroy a scanner/scrambler on a single discharge.

 

Reaper, make its ability give pierce damage in addition to its accuracy, ie function similar to charged breacher,

 

G2R, keep the fuel usage, perhaps reduce the consumption, and remove radar signature, though the reload animation is a secondary concern 

 

(Non Vanguard)Turrets, this fits slightly under the stretchy ideas, give the turret modes no damage increase from the back(they are already sitting ducks) give them some sort of team boosting effect, brawler gives some regen to team in AoE, rocketeer gets a hover mode, A class height off the ground, faster, but harder to control, like a boat,

 

T32 thing is a glitch. Nice to know, but the thread's on balance issues.

 

On the incin, I've seen that suggestion a few times and didn't consider it originally. Edited under Common suggestion.

 

Hellfire's are a mess.

 

Reaper ability I would need to see some discussion on. My personal opinion is that that sort of ability would also be underutilized and somewhat underwhelming, but I can see a use when it comes to shields and barriers in particular.

 

As for turret modes, oh boy. I mean, that definitely stretches some stuff, but in general I think that would make them massive floating targets.

 

 

 

Breacher: Way loud. Turn that racket off, pleaseIbegofyou.

*Personal note, I still think it would make a way better Tech prestige weapon than the 223.

 

AM-SAR: While balanced, it's kind of offputting. The clicky-click mechanic makes it seem like just a manual RPR.

 

B3-AR Series: What if each weapon made the SAARE behave differently? Like the BBY gave the SAARE shots that ricochete, the PPA could do multi-directional shot (think three fireballs fired at once, at different angles), etc. These particular ideas may not be that great, but something in the right direction maybe?

 

Seeker: Put me down for balanced.

 

GL: I second that suggetion.

 

HF: I like the "buff all the things" idea. The alternate suggestion sounds way complicated, but if we had a TESTING ENVIRONMENT TO TRY IT IN, I would be curious to see how it goes.

 

TOW: Remove remote detonation? If it's so accurate, you should be able to land your shots well enough, or at least be able to utilize the splash.

 

Helix: My suggestion? GET OVER IT

 

Reaper: My first love, my pride and joy, she needs help. You see, her teeth got busted up by some cranky devs. Now her bites can only do so much. She needs her teeth fixed, doc. She needs 'em sharpened. I agree that a standard issue damage buff would be bland, but I also agree that the current ability needs to be overhauled. What about explosive rounds? Or tracker rounds? Makes an enemy show on radar, maybe makes that enemy take more damage too?

 

Tech: (See Helix suggestion)

 

Assault: I think a cut to the health pool would be a good move.

 

Bruiser: Firstly, I do agree that a Hellfire balance should come first, shortly followed by a look at this mechs ability. That being said, I would like to see a health buff. I feel like the Bruiser is more "suppress and defend," but it doesn't have a high enough health pool to excel in that role. This is compounded by the fact that the Assault has more health and a stronger secondary, meaning it is better equipped to do the Bruiser's job than the Bruiser is.

 

Fred: I would like this idea, but since it's been in the shop, the "sancitity" so to speak is lost. Not sure how much it would really mean to Cupcake it, but I definitely won't say I'm against it.

 

Brawler: I think it's just fine.

 

G²R: The radar thing is kind of stupid, especially since the ability just makes you run faster. I like the idea of either buffing the ability or the fuel tank.

 

Gren: 

 

 

Incin: Yeah it's balanced, but the ability kinda sucks. Not sure what else you could do with it, but I feel like there's something better out there.

 

Rocketeer: Don't forget, the ability also sucks up all enemy EMPs, and that's pretty handy.

 

Health Orbs: Just get rid of them. There, I said it, sue me.

 

 

Breacher thing: I haven't heard of this being a particularly decisive issue. I'm not positive it should be included on a balance issue summary sheet, but I'm open to it if this seems to be a consensus.

 

AM SAR: I totally agree, but some people put it to very good use and I've actually never heard of anyone feeling quite as uncomfortable using it as I feel, or it seems you as well. Due to a very limited data pool, that mechanic did not make the list.

 

B3-AR: that is exactly the sort of thing I was describing in the suggestion and will update the OP to reflect those.

 

Seeker: meh. The homing thing makes problems and they seem to be big enough to make a change.

 

HF: +1 testing environment.

 

TOW: I think that sort of thing requires a significant level of testing. It has a spiral to it and isn't the easiest thing to hit with at anything beyond medium range - it's no heat cannon. It's not necessarily clear that something does need to be done, but there are a fair amount of gripes at its ease of use/common usage.

 

Helix: My personal sentiment as well.

 

Reaper: Those suggestions sound reasonable to consider. I'll update the OP.

 

Assault: If so, marginally. Maybe swap the place of the bruiser and assault in terms of health. It still needs to be the most new player friendly mech.

 

Bruiser: I've seen a few suggestions for health buff in this and will add that to the OP under common suggestions.

 

Fred: Eh. Sanctity isn't a balance issue.

 

Brawler: Me too. But it's worth noting there are valid concerns out there.

 

Incin: Dude that ability kicks ass. I've escaped (read: won) more than a couple 1 v 3s against A classes or weakened opponents using the ability at the right time. I recall a year or so ago sharing the same opinion though, but you've just got to know when to use it.

 

Health Orbs: eeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

 

I agree with almost every thing Tickle has written down (not neccessarily his opinion, tho).

 

 

But for me, major things are missing:

 

- Remove hitscan entirely, every weapon should have an actual projectile

- Every ability that currently has a timer should generate some amount of heat while active (timer removed, use ability as long as you like)

- Increase heat generation for every weapon (Look at some old weapons where the EOC could actually overheat a mech. Sounds stupid, right? The EOC?)

- Dodging should consume fuel again

- AirCompressor should not negate the vertical speed when dodging

- Add inacurracy when hovering and dodging for every weapon (except for missiles)

- Improve the stealth of predator and infiltrator (atleast the borders should be smoothened with the surroundings, fix the bugs (smoke is not animated through the stealth))

- Get rid of unrealistic internals (dmg reduced when dying? Fuel Convertor?) and add tradeoffs again

- Give us a new, fancy looking HUD

 

 

- Everything what tickle has collected from the community (and himself)

 

Hitscan weapons are almost never brought up. If the community wishes to debate this and reach something of a consensus, sure, but I'm willing to bet I know what it is. Also reason behind this?

 

Reason being on the heat/ability thing?

 

Reason being for the heat generation thing?

 

Reason being for the dodge consuming fuel thing?

 

Reason being for the AC vertical speed thing?

 

Reason being?

 

Reason being?

 

Reason being?

 

I can appreciate you having personal opinions on the game itself and wanting to subscribe to realism, that's all fine, but realism and game balance have literally nothing to do with each other. You're describing a different game, not what can be done in this game to fine tune the balance.

 

 

I don't know what can be considered as "quick-fix", but the following ideas could help :

 

EOC repeater : increase the number of puck of the uncharged EOC to 4

Hellfire : increase the initial speed and reduce the spread of the dumbfire mode

Vulcan XT : I'm pretty sure that left and right vulcan XT have different stats, if so the "primary" vulcan XT could have same stat line as the AR, and keep the secondary as it is. It's not fluffy but it could do the job.

 

Rocketeer : give it the AM-SAR or the SA-Hawkins instead of the EOC repeater

Reaper : an "easy" change of it's ability could be the pred vision.

 

Also turret mode should have a faster cancel / unturret and an increase of the front damage reduction.

 

EOC: this would increase the DPS to 69 - up from 52, if we kept the same time to fire. It would give a full uncharged volley a damage of 104. I am not opposed to this, but I think there are slightly better ways to go about it, as I think the DPS is still low, but the burst is increased again. The burst was never the issue, it has always been the DPS at hand. I will still add it to common suggestions.

 

Hellfire: also will add to common suggestions.

 

Vulcan: I haven't done any testing on the subject and am relying on salty stats, but I did just log into Hawken to verify that the game reads them as the same weapon, and it does. If there's ]evidence for what you're saying, I would be very interested to know.

 

Rocketeer: Primary weapons I feel need to wait until there's a hellfire fix, and additionally the discussion is open on buffing the EOC. That sort of change ought to wait until those two are sorted out.

 

Reaper: oof. I'm not sure. I feel that would get a little weird. If there's support for it I'll add it, but I think there are better ways to go about it.

 

Turret modes were in the process of being reworked when ADH left and I think Reloaded is continuing that. Again, if there's discussion on the matter the list will be updated.

 

 

Agreed. I'd rather change TOW mechanic than align GL on TOW.

 

This would break the weapon design (2*3 pucks). I think a good way to increase EOC's DPS is just simply by decreasing the reload cooldown of the first 3 pucks.

 

 

Also, some things I've heard many times :

 

Corsair-KLA : Slightly decrease the changing mode cooldown

 

Seeker : Nepacaka already said it's the most viable option for rocketeer. And it's a freaking annoying weapon, change its mechanics ffs.

 

T-32 Bolt : slightly decrease dispersion, at least at close to medium range

 

Brawler with SA Hawkins : It makes it good at all range. With its healthpool, it makes it OP. And isn't the Brawler supposed to be a close range mech ?

Personnal suggestion : Change this weapon with another. Why not Reflak ?

 

Assault and CRT : Assault OP, CRT useless.

Personnal suggestions : Give Assault the CRT stats. Change CRT mechanics (stats, weapons and ability) to make it a fun mech to play (it already has a fun chassis so it's a good start)

 

 

As for the EOC, I think the best option is what you've stated, but I think it's a worthwhile notion to consider.

 

KLA: I haven't actually heard anything on that and will wait for a weigh in and would appreciate some reasoning behind it.

 

Seeker: dfsjh;g;kfjhklhjf

 

T32: Also haven't heard any balance issues on this end and will wait for a weigh in and would appreciate some reasoning behind it.

 

SA Hawkins Brawler: At close range it can still be overcome by a mech with high DPS or a player that's better at using the environment. It is perhaps the most OP dueling mech however. I feel like limiting it strictly to close range is a little much. All C mechs other than the rocketeer presently operate best at close to mid range. Having one with a long range weapon is nice.

 

Assault/CRT: the stats are waaaaaaay too close to say that.

 

 

i know guys, you love alot of babaji text :D           sorry!
 

i agree with many Ticklemyiguana points, but not with all.

 

 

 

it suck in close range fight, because DPS. his HP help him with this, but his speed... it is actually not OP, Vanguard with Mini-flak can shred Brawler, or any mech with Vulcan. it is not OP. but it balanced very good more or less. Actually, brawler always have a problem with balance. It is probably most scariest mech in one on one, but in the same time it can be useless without tech in fight. And it is just a support-mech, he can't do nothing without his team, he not deal tonnes of damage and not have high DPS. he can't survive alone, and his HP doesn't safe you.

 

imho, brawler with current stats is very good balanced for 5vs5 matches, but not for 6vs6

 

1) Flak
i disagree about Flak. it not working on brawler like it working on scout now. My suggestion, more smooth falloff for bulets, or increased shrapnels to 10 per shot (now it is 8)
Most of problem, it is good weapon in 1vs1, but not in 6vs6, where you can't realize your potencial. (not all map is a Origin =/ )
 

or gain Brawler his own Flak-XT version. his Flak should be a most devastative weapon at point blank range, but it is not.
Another idea, make brawler flak-xt a 120-130 damage, and falloff starting with 10 meters (10m - 130 dmg, 20m - 120 dmg, 30m - 110 dmg, 40m - 80 dmg, 50m - 30 dmg).
Bralwer with flak should have scriest opponent at point blank, but he is not... he is fear and lose against weapon like vulcan or mini-flak.

 

 

2) Incinerator

incinerator, it broken so much, he destroy general hawken rules. it can be only OP, or nerfed into oblivion. better way to fix it - rework it.
but most of problem actually ppa with saare. with bby it useles. ability is useless. it is good only with mama.

 

i can suggest most easy way to change it which i see (only with his current stats).

- decrease big-saare blast radius by 20%

- decrease big-saare arc trajectory 2/3 distance (to prevent inci ship destroying, now you can shoot in ship only with small-saare)

- decrease big-saare fireball speed to 110 (140 now)

- decrease big-saare damage to 75.

- increase bby damage a little.

- change ability into "heat transfer"

- delete his cooling aura, or turn it into ability.

easy way that i can suggest. but i actually preffer to see it totally reworked, and admit every hawken rules. this mech now have to many roles in the same time. inci is a damage dealer, tank, buffer/debuffer (support). it is wrong. it should be only support and nothing more. or divided roles :
- support with baby
- damage dealer with papa
- debuffer/support with mama
Actually, nothing good changes for this mech, while incinerator doesn't use standart overheat system like other mechs.

 

 

3) AR
Assault Rifle, should have a very slightly accuracy nerf and falloff nerf. a very very slightly. -2% maybe. it is so good now, so, nerf it just for fun! xD

 

 

4) Sustain
All sustain weapon should be nerfed by "Damage Before Overheat" stats. minimum -150 damage. ie, increased sustain weapon heat. it's required a very long time to explain why.

 

 

5) EOC-Predator
You Should can detonate your Mines while you use boost!


6) TOW and GL

TOW is not OP weapon, just all other secondaries like HF is useless xD
GL no need buff. it is a different weapon with higher splash radius, and ricochete as advantage. if you know where you enemy stay, it is can be much more effective than TOW.
TOW optimal range is a 50m. if enemy stand higher than this distance and look at you. he can evade all of your rockets with dodge. (maybe except C-class, they need ~60m). since 70-80m you even no need to use dodge to evade TOW rocket, you just can change walking direction and enemy rockets not hit you. especially on a-class.
 

 

7) HellFire.
I think, maybe "beep-beep" sound should be sounded only when you already launch your rockets. enemy should not know that you use lock-on, before you are attack him.

 

 

8) Sabot
i disagree :P
you know why.

https://community.pl...hould-be-fixed/

 

 

9) Tech, Orbs, and Orblording

This is several things, which can not be nerfed/buffed without each other.

- Tech is underpowered now in attack, but you actually can't buff it.

- orb-lording is actually one of the weapon against tech.
Just realize situation. Enemy team have a tech, your team - not. What you should do in this situation? Obviously, use orblording tactics to neutralize a tech effect. While enemy tech heal tank, you use brawler and regeneration from several orbs. and your team have 10-20 sec to do something while you almost invulnerable to damage. it is more or less working...in siege mode :D  than you die, respawn, and repeat your orb-lording at AA against tech again.

If you nerf orb-lording, enemy team with tech gain more cons against you. this is actually whole broken system.

Also, tech have a some very good gameplay point, and fix some problems in game:
- tech delete deadlock situation

(not always, but 70-80%). If you play in Beta Hawken, you should remember situations like on top of UpTown. where both team use defensive way and nobody want to attack enemy team. Because even if Brawler with 1k HP trying attack 6 enemies, they just kill him in 1 second. But not with tech! Tech can smoothes such situations and not make game super-boring.
- tech can make fight more agressive.

With current meta, C-class with slow speed, and very slow dodge can't evade all damage if not use covers constantly. useless piece of meat. so, actually, they are not "Tanks" now. They are only "Supports" now. Only tech can transform "Support Brawler" into "Tank Brawler".

 

If you delete tech and orblording, C-class start sucking on Big maps (they actually sux right now, except Siege, and very bored gameplay in TDM, DM). Start sucking on Open space. (due the A and B class not suffer so much on open space like C, because they can dodging everytime)

 

yeah, i want nerf orblording, but it is more hard than many peoples think, because it ruined many things. but if you delete orblording, you should also delete tech. if you buff tech, you should also buff orblording, to gain a chance team without tech. this is how it working...you can divided it while we have tech in game.

How to fixed in TDM - Added gameplay like "zone control". On map in random place added a point on 2-3 minutes. than more your teammates stand in circle, than more points your team earn. after several minutes, points replacement in another random place on map. it is like one team trying to defence, second team trying to attack. etc.
 

 

 

Mech Changes which i want to see:

 

Scout

- jumping and flying acceleration should be decreased twice

- HP should be increased. it should be a mech which good on ground, now bunny hopping and acceleration is broken by Ascension patch, and Scout flying speed faster than berserk actually have, lol. (if he use boost+jump, the same problem have a raider in ability)

 

Reaper
 

KE-sabot have the same spread without scope. it is very close to zero. slug have a zero spread. actually, ability can working only with RPR and AMSAR.
it is not ability problem, just KE and Slug don't have a spread, so, reaper ability is totally useless now, because mostly reaper use Slug. another broken game mechanic, because we don't have dynamic weapon spread.

 

Raider
- He shouldn't have walking speed boost while ability, only boost speed.

Rocketeer
- oh...

 

 

 

totally agree. except HUD conclusion. better return old one! :D


Conclusion. too much broken things in complex. Hawken need "hard reset" to fix all broken thing.

 

Oh man, Nepa. Goddammit. I have to read all this? In your broken English? fuzzy bunny. (Friendly nudge at the English part. No intent to be insulting. I know it's a hell of a pain to speak through a translator.)

 

Alright let's do this.

 

 

1. Flak: 108 damage at full shot. 108+108+TOW=341 damage. Flak fires every 1.25 seconds. That means scout, infil, and tech can be dead by the time it takes to fire two flak shots - below one and a half seconds. Add another second for the TOW to cool down, and that's 466 damage - just 0.25 seconds away from killing every single B class minus the G2 Assault. The weapon combination the Brawler has is very powerful if you can hit with it. 2.50 seconds to take out most mechs in the game - and these are easy weapons to hit with.

 

It may be a little different with your ping, but with minimal latency, the Brawler is a menace with the Flak.

 

More smooth falloff I'm not opposed to but I'm not positive how it will effect the game, and the same goes for more bullets for the same damage.

 

Currently Brawler is the scariest opponent at close range because it takes the best weapon combo on the scout and stacks 480 more health onto it.

 

 

 

2. Incinerator: Your premise is that the Incin is blatantly OP, which has not been the accepted notion for quite some time. Those nerfs are large and unjustified until further input is added.

 

 

 

3. AR: It's currently the weakest of the most common primaries in terms of its damage. Could you elaborate on why you feel it needs a nerf?

 

 

4. Sustain: We need a why in order to have a discussion. General consensus on the NA Comp side of things is that Sustain is about as OP as the assault and berserker can make it.

 

 

5. EOC Predator: could you elaborate on why?

 

 

6. GL vs TOW: GL advantages are greater splash radius and ability to ricochet. TOW advantages are increased travel speed, decreased reload time, straight line fire (easier to aim). While situationally the GL has advantages, strictly speaking the TOW is better in most situations. For this reason, I believe that decreasing the cooldown time by 0.25 seconds to mirror the TOW's fire rate would be an improvement.

 

The TOW does generate ~7% more heat than the GL, but until the fire rate is equal, the heat generated isn't much use comparing, especially when they're both rather proficient at securing a kill before overheating.

 

 

 

7. Hellfires: I will add that to common suggestions, though on its own I don't believe it's enough, nor does it address the homing situation.

 

 

8. Sabot: Your complaints are unique in that to my knowledge, no one has complained about that extensively. It's nowhere near a consensus and won't be added until there's a significant push for it.

 

 

 

9. Tech/Orbs: I like this section. It's a different way to look at the situation. I disagree that they are that closely related, but I'm considering making debate specific threads for this stuff in order to have slightly better reasoning as to why stuff is where it is, and that would be one of them.

 

 

10. Scout: I'm not personally opposed to this, and perhaps it would actually give people like Aelita a better chance against pilots that know what they're doing. This is worth considering as a tier specific balance change. I will update the OP to reflect this.

 

 

11. Reaper: The unscoped spread is nowhere close to zero. (That first bit is me just being surprised that the visible impact is so much lower than the crosshairs.) But I believe your general opinion is that the ability should be changed, which is already up in the air as far as this thread is concerned.

 

 

12. Raider: Need some reasoning behind this and some discussion.

 

 

 

On the subject of vulcan-XT: Accuracy is slightly better than the vanilla vulcan and it's heat gen is lower than any other sustain weapon. Do not underestimate the value of having all the mech's DPS in bullet hose hitscan form. I think the G2A is mostly fine.

 

I think every mech should be competitively viable. The combination of spinup, short range, no splash damage, and low DPS hinder the G2A pretty substantially. I've seen it used effectively, but I still think it's down there with the EOC Raider/EOC Infil, and certainly less viable than the already silly G2R.

 

 

Scout! Debated subject. Current iteration is widely accepted as balanced.

 

I must live in some sort of paralell universe. Also i don�t dislike them because they are fun to play. They are just way too fast.

 

You might be. The people who dominate less than high tier play in scouts are usually equally competent in other mechs, and if all of the sudden they opted to play Brawler, you'd likely be calling for a nerf to that. The scout is fun to play, so people play it. People who are very good at the game play it. People who are very good at the game rarely find themselves in a lobby filled exclusively with people who are very good at the game, and are instead placed with people that are less of a challenge to beat. But they play scout because it is more fun to do well in a lower level lobby with a mech that two good volleys could decimate you in than the walking behemoth of the brawler or the spaz DPS/health combo that is the Zerker.

 

 

 

I actually thought about this a lot and maybe replace the SAARE with a flamethrower with moderate damage but it slowly uses fuel when firing and when enemies are hit, it does not give them heat but provides a debuff (about the time of redox) that will prevent any heat loss unless using a coolant ability (Assaults, CRT). Its just an idea and im not so sure about the fuel using but with the nature of the current Incin weapons with relatively high heat generation, adding a heat making secondary would make shooting impossible. Also, remove the heat syphon passive of the Incin and maybe tweak the ability? Basically a complete overhaul, infinite firing is not a mechanic that should be in the game, also with no heat syphon, it would help the tech-incin wombo combo.

 

The flamethrower idea is in the OP currently, but beyond that I'm not willing to add debuffs and whatnot to a completely unknown factor and say "try this it could be balanced".

 

The heat siphon is what really puts the incin in a support role - unfortunately it does contribute to pubby deathballs a little much - but again I'm not sure the incin is OP enough to need much. I think the BBY/PPA/M4MA/SAARE interactions are the priority here, and like the Hellfire mechs, I think tweaking the mechanics of the incin should take a back seat to tweaking the weapons.

 

 

i only have one request, give rocketeer's turret mode the ability of multi lock

 

with the maximum lock on targets being the max amount of rockets, more of a support thing then a raw damage thing

I will add this to the suggestions.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 28 October 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[brackets]

I've kept a thread of possible options for the Reaper's special ability.

[ticklemyiguana]

I've kept a thread of possible options for the Reaper's special ability.

I will read this and likely include it in the main post in the Reaper section.

[JackVandal]

 

 

Hellfire's are a mess.

 

 

My main point is to buff them in regards to cqc, where they are useless, without buffing the potentially op lock-on, ie small damage buff(i HATE needing 2 salvos to break a scanner or scrambler), and a dumb-fire speed increase/spread reduction,

[Aelita]

 

That's about as lopsided an engagement as you can find, scout-wise: CQC against an SS, free opening salvo, and the top scout duelist in the game.  And yet I kept up with that "way too fast" speed just fine.  If scouts were speed-nerfed, they'd be absolute garbage in higher-tier lobbies.

 

 

I watched exactly that video this morning. How is that helping your statement? You sooo dead.  I am happy for you that you can handle scouts  so well. I am not top tier and i don�t need to be in that club and since i don�t want to play with Lego graphics, my PCs performance isn�t that great either. The moment i realize that i am hit by a scout its away again on the other side of the map, if i am not dead. Just saying. I don�t want to start an old discussion on this thread. So lets just accept the fact that i am not liking the scout and nothing you will say can change that. ^_^

Edited by Aelita, 28 October 2015 - 11:09 AM.

[Hyginos]

I watched exactly that video this morning. How is that helping your statement? You sooo dead.

 

This feat can be easily duplicated with other mechs, and without getting killed in the process:

 

Spoiler

 

The point of these demonstration is that the scout, while fast, is also made of paper.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

Nerf ALL HITSCAN Weapon! 

You need to add a delay between "time shots" and "eventually hit into an enemy."  About 30 ms. 

Hitscan is currently annoying to play against. 

making all hitscan weapons into "actor" launchers would be a giant performance hit on our pcs and the networks as a hitscan is simply a hitscan but an "actor" is essentialy to the server another "player" with its properties/variables, location, angle, weight,velocity,acceleration dampen all these factors and more would be spamming the entire system with zillions of "players" 

[Nept]

I watched exactly that video this morning. How is that helping your statement? You sooo dead.  I am happy for you that you can handle scouts  so well. I am not top tier and i don�t need to be in that club and since i don�t want to play with Lego graphics, my PCs performance isn�t that great either. The moment i realize that i am hit by a scout its away again on the other side of the map, if i am not dead. Just saying. I don�t want to start an old discussion on this thread. So lets just accept the fact that i am not liking the scout and nothing you will say can change that. ^_^

 

You claimed that scouts were "way too fast".  I showed you an absolute worst-case engagement against a Scout (Sharpshooter has the lowest armour of any B Class, the lowest DPS in the game, and requires the most precise aim) and my ability to react to its movements without issue.  Every shot landed, and the Scout - even with every advantage - ended up dying to get the kill.

 

In other words, it is fully possible to strike scouts.  The "way too fast" problem you're experiencing is user error, not game imbalance.  You don't like the scout?  Fine, no issues there.  But lower the bar so that your personal performance improves?  I don't think so.

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 28 October 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[Sylhiri]

Personally I don't think the Breacher should be able to fire out of a shield. It should still be able to penetrate the shield from the outside but not the inside for the reason that I don't think any item should benefit one mech more then another.

[n3onfx]

I feel like the charged T32 shot could use a little tighter spread or/and a tad more range before it starts doing a maximum of 15 damage.

 

Also something I've seen people complain about and makes sense, reduce the time it takes to switch modes on the Corsair, both for Raider and Raider G2. There is no reason it has to be that long and artificially limits "smart play" as in adapting to a situation. 

 

EOC has already been talked about.

Edited by neon, 28 October 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[MomOw]

 

Vulcan: I haven't done any testing on the subject and am relying on salty stats, but I did just log into Hawken to verify that the game reads them as the same weapon, and it does. If there's ]evidence for what you're saying, I would be very interested to know.

 

My opinion is based on kerokuapp that has 2 stats, I guess that they were cloned weapons :

 

Accuracy.%.WeaponMachineXTL

Accuracy.%.WeaponMachineXTR

Edited by MomOw, 28 October 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

My opinion is based on kerokuapp that has 2 stats, I guess that they were cloned weapons :

 

Accuracy.%.WeaponMachineXTL

Accuracy.%.WeaponMachineXTR

linklinklinklinklinklinklinklink

[nepacaka]

I died with style.

It may not happen if you agree with my SS buff suggestion in last thread ^_^

Actually you die only because you stand in open space, received ~full flak damage and can't dodge any scout rockets. Scout be in good position, attack you first, and almost die.
If you use some covers, you have a chance to kill Dare. It is only present how scout is actually weak. He attack first, He was on ideal range, and he almost ded...
Just replace your SS in this situation on Vanguard or Assalt, and Dare probably died first than can kill you.

But we always have a problem with scout, if we buff it, nubs on scouts still be a useless, only good players starting shred all nubs easier. And forum start whine "scout is OP!"

In my opinion scout should have HP buff, but he should pay airspeed for this, it can be a scout features.

[nepacaka]

i only have one request, give rocketeer's turret mode the ability of multi lock

with the maximum lock on targets being the max amount of rockets, more of a support thing then a raw damage thing

This multi-lock is a totally shitty and useless idea. Most of problem when you play on rocketeer, he can't defense himself on 1vs1. If someone attack you, you already ded. Rocketeer is a fully team depended mech.
His weapon not required skill (obviously, I'm talking about seeker/HF, not about Heat-cannot), but in the same time he can't do nothing if enemy stand close, and His dps not enough, and he can't control his weapons. It have a logic, because rocketeer is a long-range mech. But most of problem if rocketeer trying to do something - HF missiles, which very hard to hit A/B class in cqc.

If you want make Rocky stronger, forgot about multi-lock, additional shoulder rockets, and other ridiculous ideas. All what you need to do - made HF missiles depend on player skill!
How to do it? Well, it is a good question...

[Sylhiri]

But we always have a problem with scout, if we buff it, nubs on scouts still be a useless, only good players starting shred all nubs easier. And forum start whine "scout is OP!"

In my opinion scout should have HP buff, but he should pay airspeed for this, it can be a scout features.

 

It's not just a problem with the Scout and Reloaded will have to deal with this problem. The problem being that the speed of A classes is too much for new (and low tier) players getting used to the game, it's a very unique movement system as not many FPS games have a turn cap and dodge. So the A class can easily destroy the new players because they lack the experience, however up in high tier play the speed amounts to jack **** except when running from base to base. Since aiming is no longer an issue in high tier the A classes can't really keep up with mechs that do as much DPS but have way lower health when they are of equal skill level, the dodge cooldown isn't that significant to help much.

 

So if you buff the A classes, it'll get better in high tier but will dominate low tier. If you keep it the same or nerf A classes then the opposite will happen. This is one thing that Reloaded is going to have trouble with. Also I think this is the main reason the Hawken forums have such a hard-on for B and C classes :p

[JackVandal]

This multi-lock is a totally shitty and useless idea. Most of problem when you play on rocketeer, he can't defense himself on 1vs1. If someone attack you, you already ded. Rocketeer is a fully team depended mech.
His weapon not required skill (obviously, I'm talking about seeker/HF, not about Heat-cannot), but in the same time he can't do nothing if enemy stand close, and His dps not enough, and he can't control his weapons. It have a logic, because rocketeer is a long-range mech. But most of problem if rocketeer trying to do something - HF missiles, which very hard to hit A/B class in cqc.

If you want make Rocky stronger, forgot about multi-lock, additional shoulder rockets, and other ridiculous ideas. All what you need to do - made HF missiles depend on player skill!
How to do it? Well, it is a good question...

This is why i still stand by the idea of the speed boost for dumbfire, as it is, a walking mech can sidestep unlocked missiles in close range, its like why the GL is worse at medium ranges than tow, you just walk sideways to make it miss, if (dumbfire) hellfires had a bit more speed they could hit targets and actually be usefull, it buffs the skill level without making it free kills,

 

Independent of that, the T32 has some really irregular spread, sometimes a shot hits everything, most of the time, it misses.

[JackVandal]

Trying to give some tech feedback that's not "do you feel the heals" related, it needs either on the tech, or incini end, something that blocks the incini's ability to siphon heat from the tech, i assume this would go easier on the tech than the incini, this stops the endless fireball from regenerating indefinitely,

 

if that's not enough perhaps reduce the effectiveness of multiple techs on a single target, ie two techs on an brawler will be barely better than one, so as to reduce the effectiveness of multitechs, at least on incini, prevents any immortal C class.

 

Other than that the tech is relatively balanced, the issue tends to be the feel of it in hawken, though its scoring needs a reduction, the hate usually comes from the fact it requires a different method to handle than other mechs.

[Aelita]

never said to nerv it. i say its too fast for my eyes and i dont like it. whatever. this pro bs... like allways.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

 

Vulcan XT : I'm pretty sure that left and right vulcan XT have different stats, if so the "primary" vulcan XT could have same stat line as the AR, and keep the secondary as it is. It's not fluffy but it could do the job.

 

Alrighty. Took a look at what you sent me then showed Ashfire. The weapon stats at present are the same but in the game code they are listed separately. In my lolihavenoideawhati'mdoing sort of understanding, that would mean that the stats can be tweaked indivdually, but at that point, we might as well just buff both of them.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

 

 

 

 

Alrighty. Took a look at what you sent me then showed Ashfire. The weapon stats at present are the same but in the game code they are listed separately. In my lolihavenoideawhati'mdoing sort of understanding, that would mean that the stats can be tweaked indivdually, but at that point, we might as well just buff both of them.

 

likely a way to have primary/secondary format so the existing system which no idea how it is designed may have tables in a database per weapon with checkboxes on every mech the weapon is available to given they bought it if it can be bought(another checkbox) its just a theory, but it was entirely doable for them to make it appear the same that would look the way you want yet possibly confuse future techs working in the codebase seeing such an entry

[MomOw]

EOC: this would increase the DPS to 69 - up from 52, if we kept the same time to fire. It would give a full uncharged volley a damage of 104. I am not opposed to this, but I think there are slightly better ways to go about it, as I think the DPS is still low, but the burst is increased again. The burst was never the issue, it has always been the DPS at hand. I will still add it to common suggestions.

 

 

I'm OK with either a rof increase or an uncharged burst increase. I find that this weapon is hard enough to aim so that a landed shot should be rewarding, so that's I said that.

 

Vulcan: I haven't done any testing on the subject and am relying on salty stats, but I did just log into Hawken to verify that the game reads them as the same weapon, and it does. If there's ]evidence for what you're saying, I would be very interested to know.

 

 

I agree that having 2x the same weapon that deals different amount of damages ain't cool. But having played glitched AR G2A and RPR G2A I found these loadout to be really OK, and I don't like having a "nerfed" AR as primary (but dual AR would be too powerful...)

 

Rocketeer: Primary weapons I feel need to wait until there's a hellfire fix, and additionally the discussion is open on buffing the EOC. That sort of change ought to wait until those two are sorted out.

 

I don't get what they were thinking when they gave the rocketeer the EOC. I want a long-range hitscan medium rof weapon on hit
 

 

Reaper: oof. I'm not sure. I feel that would get a little weird. If there's support for it I'll add it, but I think there are better ways to go about it.

 

 

It was just a quick and dirty suggestion to have a useful ability on it. Not a real suggestion. I'd rather have a "mark the target" ability.

 

Turret modes were in the process of being reworked when ADH left and I think Reloaded is continuing that. Again, if there's discussion on the matter the list will be updated.

 

I'm really upset by the un-turret delay. This is one of the reason I almost never go turret even with vanguard.

[DerMax]

Please add to the Heat Cannon section:

 

1. Reduce the volume level of its charging. It is obnoxiously loud currently � can be heard from miles away.

 

2. Mute the trembling of the charged Heat Cannon. It just gives you away when you're trying to be sneaky, and there's no reason to have it in the game.

[nepacaka]

Reason being?

 

 yes. i can.

- Increase heat generation for every sustain weapon (Look at some old weapons where the EOC could actually overheat a mech. Sounds stupid, right? The EOC?)

"Damage before overheat" - very important parametr. it not very important when you fight in Duel, but it very important for long fight, for example in Siege mode, when you play in Siege 20 min. Mechs with high DBO values working better in this mode, like assaults and incinerators, because their summary damage in total much more than for example Brawler. Bralwer can shoot a little, and to retreat to cooling, his wait, can't deal damage. while this time, when bralwer is not dangerous, assault continue shooting, ie, Assault can damage several mech before overheat, brawler only one.
Then, while brawler close to overheating and retrieve, Assault can going on AA and capture, because he ready to fight, Brawler not. Assault also cooled during the Brawler was incapacitated.
Sustain mech have much more abilities/time to Attack. due the Burst mechs most of time can working only as defensive mech.
Correct variant, For example, if burst weapon have 800-900 DBO, sustain should have around 1050-1100 DBO.
 

This make different types of mech more balanced in 6vs6 matches. Why? Doesn't matter which mech/weapon your use, Summary Team Damage will be the same for both team. It is important. Now it is wrong. this is one of the global reason why sustain mech so good. Assault and others mostly imbalances because of this parameter, and not because of the damage or something else.
If you think my idea sound stupid, try to pick a differend team of random mechs on paper, and write their "potential damage". You will notice that some teams can be balanced, but the damage to the other teams will be much higher or much lower. Given the long battle, the difference between them increases in several times.
(+ incinerator, which have infinity damage before overheat, because he can shoot withou overhet, one of the imbalanced mech by DBO paramet?r)
 

- Dodging should consume fuel again
scout speed, use Only Boost - 18 sec

scout speed, use only walking+dodge, the same distance

 

difference in 2 seconds. Yes, scout can be faster if use Dodge+Boost, but it just fuel mistaked maded by ADH in ascention. Even if scout don't have a fuel at all, he can continue moving with almost the same speed. actually you no need Any Fuel to moving very fast. It is a stupid game mechanics which totally killed Boost feature.
Admit to, you're always using Boost+Doodge to moving faster, Right? this fuel exploit should be deleted.
Another broken game mechanics with problems after Ascension. What do you think?

 

- AirCompressor should not negate the vertical speed when dodging

You want to have newbie friendly hawken? :D
logic. it is stupid when you can destroy banally gravity rule. when you jump on jumpad every people expects you to flying up, but instead you can disrupt the logical physics of motion, and to cancel all the forces of inertia. it is not how jumpad should working.
it also helps with air-180 bug.

 

- Add inacurracy when hovering and dodging for every weapon (except for missiles)

Another thing in air combat, with hidden game mechanics which old ADH game-designers not see (or maded it special! I don�t know)
Early when you flying, your weapon spread was increased. It working with the very simple idea. When you stand on ground and use boost, you can�t shoot. When you flying, you have the same speed with boost, but you can shoot while you move.
Early Additional weapon spread compensate this. Now weapon don�t have a dynamic spread and this point has become unbalanced.
 

- Get rid of unrealistic internals (dmg reduced when dying? Fuel Convertor?) and add tradeoffs again

Have no idea about FuelConv (except this is really stupid, like every regen internal), but Composite Armor should be delete. It rewarding death/suicidal tactics

 

- Give us a new, fancy looking HUD

Because. New one is sucks. 5 year kids can drawing better than current HUD is. At least devs can add some texturing to HUD, so it does not look so plastic.

 

 

 

Alright let's do this.

 

 

1. Flak: 108 damage at full shot. 108+108+TOW=341 damage. Flak fires every 1.25 seconds. That means scout, infil, and tech can be dead by the time it takes to fire two flak shots - below one and a half seconds. Add another second for the TOW to cool down, and that's 466 damage - just 0.25 seconds away from killing every single B class minus the G2 Assault. The weapon combination the Brawler has is very powerful if you can hit with it. 2.50 seconds to take out most mechs in the game - and these are easy weapons to hit with.

It may be a little different with your ping, but with minimal latency, the Brawler is a menace with the Flak.

It happen not all the time. yes, sometimes you can use Flak-TOW-Flak combo and kill scout in one second, but 80-90% of fight you never be in this situation because speed. If enemy not stupid, they can easily stay at some range and flak deal maximum 20-30 damage. In real fight, your enemy - not a stationary Dummy!
You need spend a lot of time (cuz you slow) to hiding and trying to backstab someone (unexpected attack), or enemy just can easily keep distance between you and him. and you flak in this situation not deal 108 dmg, it deal only 10 dmg. right?
If you spent time to hide/fake/backstab you not deal damage. you summary fight effectiveness not very high as you may think.
It can be high only if you defence some point, and enemy forced to attack you. but it still happen not all the time in fight.
 

 

More smooth falloff I'm not opposed to but I'm not positive how it will effect the game, and the same goes for more bullets for the same damage.

More bullets will be good. It give Brawler a little more damage on short distance, and and does more equal damage for difference Hitboxex (A/B/C)
108/8=13.5 per pellets.
if you miss: -1 pellet = 94.5, -2 pellets = 81, -3 pellets = 67,5
108/10=10.8 per pellets.
if you miss: -1 pellet = 97.2, -2 pellets = 86.4, -3 pellets = 75,6
you win 5-10 damage for every shot on close distance. with all factors (falloff, accuracy) damage on 40-50m distance will be actually the same, maybe higher at 2-3 damage point. very slightly and soft buff.
 

 

Currently Brawler is the scariest opponent at close range because it takes the best weapon combo on the scout and stacks 480 more health onto it.
I agree, but not in 6vs6 fight. Almost the same problem have a G2-Raider. Yes, G2 is Even More scariest opponent in 1vs1 than Brawler, but he is not OP in team fight. But sometimes (sometimes =! always) G2 also can kill someone in less than 2 seconds.
Also, don't forget that Brawler don't have ability. Maybe when(if) he got "F" spam-ability, he should be a nerfed.

 

 

 

2. Incinerator: Your premise is that the Incin is blatantly OP, which has not been the accepted notion for quite some time. Those nerfs are large and unjustified until further input is added.

I am more want to see a complete change the incinerator concept. my point nor that he OP, but the fact that Inci is Wrong(Broken). He Broken many thing in game (siege, for example) and it should be fixed.
Also, you thinking about my motives not very correct. if I suggest change something, this does not mean that I have problems with this in the battle.

 

 

 

3. AR: It's currently the weakest of the most common primaries in terms of its damage. Could you elaborate on why you feel it needs a nerf?
Yep. Just for fun :D Ok. i'm joke. it mostly related with assault.

it should be newbie-friendly, but not OP. try to see Logical chain:
Scout: High damage, low dps, high speed, high walking, low hp, low fuel
Brawler: High damage, low dps, low speed, low walking, high hp, high fuel
Vanguard: Low damage, high dps, high speed, low walking, low hp, low fuel
Assault: Average damage/dps, high speed, high walking, high hp, high fuel
how Assault should be: Average damage/dps, average speed, high walking, average hp
It should be Average in all. like a "golden middle".

yes, assault have a low values for Fuel regen, Radar, etc. But it does not help. Because he have very high stats for HP, speed, Fuel. It is most important parameters in game. Nobody care if you have 90m radar, because mostly someone else in team have high radar. In game mode like siege you even no need radar, if you stay on E1 and see one enemy, no need to be a genius to understand, that another 5 stand on E2...

the same with fuel tank and speed dependence. If you have high speed, you have low fueltank, or vice versa, or average stats. Assault have High speed and high fueltank. and fuel-regen can't actually help with balance this stats.
 

 

 

4. Sustain: We need a why in order to have a discussion. General consensus on the NA Comp side of things is that Sustain is about as OP as the assault and berserker can make it.
I answer on this question above. Where i talking about "Damage Before Overheat" stats

 

 

5. EOC Predator: could you elaborate on why?
Because it working like this before, when devs announced a Pred. Then they delete this feature.
- you can lay some trap mines, look at radar, see how enemy pursuit you. start use boost and runaway, and make a BOOM! when enemy near to trap.

- you aslo can detonate you mines like TOW (but with small damage and small blast radius)
I don't know why ADH deleted this features for pred. maybe devs think it is too OP with this. i'm not think so.

 

 

6. GL vs TOW: GL advantages are greater splash radius and ability to ricochet. TOW advantages are increased travel speed, decreased reload time, straight line fire (easier to aim). While situationally the GL has advantages, strictly speaking the TOW is better in most situations (many players disagree with you, TOW maybe easy-to-use, but not better). For this reason, I believe that decreasing the cooldown time by 0.25 seconds to mirror the TOW's fire rate would be an improvement.

 

The TOW does generate ~7% more heat than the GL, but until the fire rate is equal, the heat generated isn't much use comparing, especially when they're both rather proficient at securing a kill before overheating.

7% more heat generation have effect when you shoot on Brawler constantly (without pauses), for example, you can shoot 6-7 flak shot, and 3 TOW, and you already very close to overheat. (or already overheat), it is can happen if you fight on close range, in this situation GL have a one more shot before overheat, ie GL can deal +125 more damage in total. It's like a final shoot.
You think that "heat" it is a useless stat, but actually it have a important role in some local situations, and this stat is very important for global balance. (as i say before, heat stat is very broken in current meta, it have a high spread between sustain and burst weapons, and this creates a big problem in the balance for some team setup, and game modes.)
trying to think about it more global.
 

 

7. Hellfires: I will add that to common suggestions, though on its own I don't believe it's enough, nor does it address the homing situation.

 

 

8. Sabot: Your complaints are unique in that to my knowledge, no one has complained about that extensively. It's nowhere near a consensus and won't be added until there's a significant push for it.

1) It is not "complaints", it is suggestion.
2) I just suggest now make it better.
3) the devs once again make the same mistake. (i mean zero spread)
Every time resorting to such actions, they are faced with problems in the further development. this not how they should do this. Doing such a thing - foolish and hasty decision.
This is why i suggest my version (you probably see it before, but if not, you can see and analyse/thinking about it, if you want.)

Spoiler

https://community.playhawken.com/topic/3593-50-things-in-hawken-which-stupid-or-should-be-fixed/?p=66309

 

 

9. Tech/Orbs: I like this section. It's a different way to look at the situation. I disagree that they are that closely related, but I'm considering making debate specific threads for this stuff in order to have slightly better reasoning as to why stuff is where it is, and that would be one of them.

More closer than many people think  :?
this topic also related with regeneration-internals, and different game modes. because it working different in DM, TDM, and in Siege, due the different specific of match features, for example. If you trying to look at this like as a complex-system
 

 

10. Scout: I'm not personally opposed to this, and perhaps it would actually give people like Aelita a better chance against pilots that know what they're doing. This is worth considering as a tier specific balance change. I will update the OP to reflect this.
Sometimes scouts kill me so fast, sometimes i kill scouts so fast, it is mostly hard mech to balance, and one of the reason, because Flak-cannon related with Brawler. If you buff HP, it can have a more time to kill someone with flak, even 15 HP can turn scout into OP (Actually not, i'm a little exaggerating). but if scout start OP (mostly bexause flak), then you need nerf Flak, but if you do, Brawler start sucking. This is why i trying to suggest alternative version. Buff HP and nerf Flying speed. To change scout playstyle.
To make scout a more "old-school", like a brawler. make scout as he once was, evil ground warrior who never fly. He lose ability to fly (not actually lose, just is very bad in this) but have a +3 slots for internal, actually, because use AC now is not a good tactics if you nerf his flying speed. Play with style. Classic mech. Not a "jumping flea"
 

 

 

11. Reaper: The unscoped spread is nowhere close to zero. (That first bit is me just being surprised that the visible impact is so much lower than the crosshairs.) But I believe your general opinion is that the ability should be changed, which is already up in the air as far as this thread is concerned.

And again, Reaper ability start being useless only because devs delete spread in Ascension. It was normal before, when every mech have a dynamic spread. Reaper have his own feature based on weapon spread.
This would not have happened if not unthinking changes in Ascension. Developers completely ignores the impact of changes. This is why it happen. This is why i don't like Sabot, Slug and KE-Sabot in current statement (and not because rifles are strong, or weak weapons, or sometning else...). It is wrong decision, which only added problem in future. You shouldn't broken your own rules, if you want make a good game-design.

 

 

12. Raider: Need some reasoning behind this and some discussion.
"Press F"-Suicidal-Aggregate. Ability when you can shoot while you can shoot and made a advanced maneuvers - it very strongly.
When you not gain "walking speed increasing" you cant just "press F" to gain more speed. You need satisfy certain conditions, one of this - have a full fuel tank, to spend it while ability.
I'm thinking about it even more, and i find more good way how to change his ability.
- delete walking speed bonus

- while raider under ability his boost fuel consumption decreased by 30-40% (ie, if raider have a full fueltank, use ability and even use boost all the time, Raider when ability end raider have about 30% fuel tank. To not stay with 0 fuel after ability)

with all of this, if you have full fuel tank, you can use boost, dodge, and shooting whole time, but if you have 50% fuel tank, you can't use full potencial of ability.
 

General idea, made Raider like a "advanced maneveurs pro mech", and not make ability so easy. (it should be more closed to G2-raider, which have nice ability now. in my opinion)
one arguments against delete walking speed bonus.
- Flying mechs also can move and shoot all the time, which difference with raiders except some bonus speed?
well, flying mechs can't use r-dodges, L-dodges, etc. I think it can be a nice changes, which not make raider ability so stupid, now it actually help even if you not have fuel at all.
 

 

Also, Dont forget about this relation when you thinking about balance. I mean, trying do not forget if you changeg one thing, you also change several mechs. Changing or balancing one probably required tunning 3-4 other mech who also turn into OP, or start sucking. (Except incinerator ofcourse! xD he is alone and can be easily changed without any effects)

I also trying made something like this in paint. It like mech and weapons relationships ^_^ (and some more)


some things not very correct, but more or less.
for example, raider. It mostly have their own weapon, but also have one of hardest to balance weapon like EOC.
the same with rocketeer, bralwer, grenadier, who related with scouts and infiltrators, so, if you want change (buff or nerf, doesn't matter) one mech,
you actually need touch all the mechs related with it, in other words, have to redo almost everything that is available.
and seek ways of possible changes in the rest of mechs beyond the control of weapons (dps, damage), and to send their views on all other indicators (overheat, speed, HP, etc.) to fix one thing, and not broken all others.

i mean, if we suggest change Scout weapon, we should keep in mind how it working with Brawler, Grenadier, Rocketeer, Infiltrator, and Vanguard. And if we change Heat cannon (for example) we also change Infiltrator, grenadier and rocketeer. etc.

To do all this, you want to be before the eyes of all the parameters and place them in a variety of conditions. then it is possible to calculate in advance how bad consequences it can lead. Though not always. And this is actually very hard and slow analysys method :(
 

[ropefish]

This multi-lock is a totally shitty and useless idea. Most of problem when you play on rocketeer, he can't defense himself on 1vs1. If someone attack you, you already ded. Rocketeer is a fully team depended mech.
His weapon not required skill (obviously, I'm talking about seeker/HF, not about Heat-cannot), but in the same time he can't do nothing if enemy stand close, and His dps not enough, and he can't control his weapons. It have a logic, because rocketeer is a long-range mech. But most of problem if rocketeer trying to do something - HF missiles, which very hard to hit A/B class in cqc.

If you want make Rocky stronger, forgot about multi-lock, additional shoulder rockets, and other ridiculous ideas. All what you need to do - made HF missiles depend on player skill!
How to do it? Well, it is a good question...

well i guess if you want to have more competitive ability for the rocketeer.. i was more thinking of it for fun :p

 

but i see your point so ill back away now >.<

[nepacaka]

well i guess if you want to have more competitive ability for the rocketeer.. i was more thinking of it for fun :p

but i see your point so ill back away now >.<

It is hard to play on "for fun" mech, when all other mechs around you just a totally seriously killing machines with tonnes of damage and DPS. It's like trying to play on G2 assault in high tier lobby :D
Or trying to dance a salsa when you opponent is professional boxer, and want to beat you :)

Edited by nepacaka, 29 October 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[ticklemyiguana]

It is hard to play on "for fun" mech, when all other mechs around you just a totally seriously killing machines with tonnes of damage and DPS. It's like trying to play on G2 assault in high tier lobby :D
Or trying to dance a salsa when you opponent is professional boxer, and want to beat you :)

I'll respond to the larger post when I have time, but I think for organization's sake, I'm going to have to make separate threads for a fair amount of balance issues.

That being said, while I don't think the idea itself is sufficient to fix the ability, I think it's a little like "buff projectile speed in hellfire shotgun mode." That alone won't fix hellfires, but it's a worthwhile suggestion because it's working with existing features without just saying "do more damage."

[Silverfire]

I play G2 Assault in higher tier lobbies and it's fuzzy bunnyng fantastic.

[nepacaka]

You just lucky xD

[Nightfirebolt]

I disagree with a lot of things in the list.

 

Maybe later I'll edit this post and explain why.

[Peregrim]

 

You might be. The people who dominate less than high tier play in scouts are usually equally competent in other mechs, and if all of the sudden they opted to play Brawler, you'd likely be calling for a nerf to that. The scout is fun to play, so people play it. People who are very good at the game play it. People who are very good at the game rarely find themselves in a lobby filled exclusively with people who are very good at the game, and are instead placed with people that are less of a challenge to beat. But they play scout because it is more fun to do well in a lower level lobby with a mech that two good volleys could decimate you in than the walking behemoth of the brawler or the spaz DPS/health combo that is the Zerker.

 

First off - I agree that good scout pilots are almost always good at playing other mechs - the scout requires a lot of skill to play well. But I'm not sure that if those players decided to use some other mech, then that other mech would get the same criticism that the scout receives (unless that mech were the berzerker). In fact, I wonder if people even have the same complaints about the miniflak or heat cannon on a scout as they do about the flak cannon; I don't think it's coincidence that flak cannon on the scout is the mech of choice for pub-stompers.

[ticklemyiguana]

First off - I agree that good scout pilots are almost always good at playing other mechs - the scout requires a lot of skill to play well. But I'm not sure that if those players decided to use some other mech, then that other mech would get the same criticism that the scout receives (unless that mech were the berzerker). In fact, I wonder if people even have the same complaints about the miniflak or heat cannon on a scout as they do about the flak cannon; I don't think it's coincidence that flak cannon on the scout is the mech of choice for pub-stompers.

It's not! The flak is also more fun. It allows the pilot to react faster than the heat cannon and think less, and it provides a more engaging alternative to the "shoot until they die" mode of the miniflak.

 

That being said, in lower level games, the heat cannon can be waaaaaaaaaay more powerful than the flak. At least you see your enemies when they have flak.

[DeeRax]

My scrubby salty opinions on things:

I echo others' suggestions of tweaking the spread and falloff of the t-32 bolt (& XT version); Both are pretty whacky, tbh.

 

The time to switch firing modes for both KLAs is way too long, and I'd argue the KLA-XT's reload time is punitively & unnecessarily long.

I'd also argue that the G2 Raider could use either  a speed buff, or an HP buff (Prolly one or the other, but not both). It's currently almost just as slow as a Brawler, but with around the same HP as Vanguard (I think it's slightly less IIRC). It's ability is great, but I don't think it completely balances its stats. I'd personally prefer a speed buff.

 

I'd also like to see re-flak actually be able to do cool trick shots somewhat reliably, as intended, but I assume that has to do with weird map geometry, rather than the weapon itself (And therefor not under the purview of this thread)

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 29 October 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[nepacaka]

G2 raider HP buff can made him 1vs1 champion. It is actually very strong mech now, if pilot have a good accuracy.

Some thought about mini-flak, well, I'm enjoyed with this, in some situations it more devastating than any other weapon, but this weapon is very instability. And it is actually not bad.

About agree/disagree with some ideas, nothing bad here, it is like brainstorming. If you miss or mistake some thing, someone else can added something new or unexpected, and improve final result, if combined ideas, or take the best variant. It is a good experience.

Edited by nepacaka, 29 October 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[HugeGuts]

Given that Reloaded seems most concerned with new player retention, I base my contribution as such.

 

Hawken needs more rookie-friendly classes, and ways faster and easier than HC grinding or MC buying to acquire some of them. Sans Technician, every class in the game requires mastery of aiming and Hawken's unique movement system to contribute in anything that's not a rookie-level match. This is too much for the average player Reloaded wants to attract. No amount of detailed tutorials will fix this. Average players want to play now, and not later after spending time learning a skill set limited to only one game.

 

Although we have the Technician, and although it's in a much better spot than when it launched, it's still boooooring to play. It only heals in one way, and it only non-heal supports in one way (Redox-02.) I have ideas for primary weapon changes to fix this.

 

o Redox-02

     - Increase damage debuff.

     - Single target focus.

 

o New Redox weapon

     - Three-way spread shot.

     - Lower damage debuff than Redox-02.

     - Multi target focus.

 

o New Healing weapon

     - Fires a single projectile that damages enemies and heals teammates.

     - Damage and healing determined by distance projectile travels. Longer distance = higher value.

[6ixxer]

ticklemyiguana, on 29 Oct 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:ticklemyiguana, on 29 Oct 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:ticklemyiguana, on 29 Oct 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:ticklemyiguana, on 29 Oct 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

 

It's not not a solid concept. You're right, it will definitely need balance, but the main reason I'm hesitant to put it on the list is because that particular mechanic of a speed debuff is seen in quite a few games (think CS, where getting shot causes you to slow down). It's likely to have been considered at some length by developers, and I don't believe it fulfills Josh's request.

 

However I did add the scanner suggestion.

 

Did those games allow you to add 2 speed internals to already fast player types?

 

I think if you can have internals that make you faster when damaged a certain %, and one that speeds you up when you kill someone, that a way to slow things down a few % is not OP, especially given the ability to counter debuffs with an internal (a proposed one anyway).

 

Eg: keeping the speed increase when damaged means you also put in a Damper and forgo the speed buff when killing.

Its your gamble and IMO a valid one. If you wanna go faster and faster you better be able to dodge this mech.

 

A place for ideas should have ideas in it, regardless of whether you think the Devs may have already considered it.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

Edited by 6ixxer, 29 October 2015 - 09:28 PM.

[Peregrim]

It's not! The flak is also more fun. It allows the pilot to react faster than the heat cannon and think less, and it provides a more engaging alternative to the "shoot until they die" mode of the miniflak.

 

That being said, in lower level games, the heat cannon can be waaaaaaaaaay more powerful than the flak. At least you see your enemies when they have flak.

 

Personally I've never found heat or miniflak scouts particularly frustrating even when I encounter really good heat or miniflak scout pilots (okay, maybe just heat scout pilots - I'm not sure if there are any miniflak scout pilots). Flak scouts are the ones I find annoying and the ones I see most people complain about. I think this is because flak + missile on scout is just a little bit too rewarding of skill. Flak + missile has one of the highest combined burst damages in the game - other than EOC mechs, only the raider and G2 raider have higher burst damage, and the Brawler ties it (with the same combo). In addition to this, it still has average DPS.

 

The EOC, while it offers much higher burst than the flak, is much harder to land (reliance on mines reduces burst to below that of flak) and has significantly lower DPS.

 

If Flak + missile is so good, why don't more people complain about the brawler? It's because the brawler is much harder to get into the optimal range (you must wait for enemies to come to you because they are all faster than you). Whereas the scout can reliably stroll up to anyone he wants to kill (everyone's slower than him).

 

If near-highest burst and average DPS is so good, why don't more more people complain about the raiders? It's because the shotgun-mode of the raider is much harder to land, takes much longer to reload, and is not very forgiving (whereas missile has very fast reload time and can be manually exploded in mid-air if you miss). The rocket mode on the raider is no more damaging than the scout's missile (the G2 raider's projectile is only a little more damaging), it has a downward arc which makes it more difficult to aim, and it takes longer to shoot again, and it can't be manually exploded in the air. Plus the raiders' ability to quickly close the distance is dependent on the ability which has a long recharge time (whereas scout can do so at will), and its easier to hit (because it's a bigger target).

 

All this combines such that the flak scout - while allegedly one of the most fun mechs to play - is also one of the best mechs to dominate lower level games with. The reason why I'm sceptical of the "it's fun to play 'a mech that two good volleys could decimate'" explanation is then why aren't there more infiltrators (only 10 more HP than the scout) using the EOC (which according to you is also considered one of the most fun weapons to play with) running around and dominating low level matches too. Effectiveness might be one answer, but you don't need to use the most effective weapon combo to have fun - especially when good players would still do very well in low level lobbies with sub-par weapon choice.

[JackVandal]

My scrubby salty opinions on things:

I echo others' suggestions of tweaking the spread and falloff of the t-32 bolt (& XT version); Both are pretty whacky, tbh.

 

The time to switch firing modes for both KLAs is way too long, and I'd argue the KLA-XT's reload time is punitively & unnecessarily long.

I'd also argue that the G2 Raider could use either  a speed buff, or an HP buff (Prolly one or the other, but not both). It's currently almost just as slow as a Brawler, but with around the same HP as Vanguard (I think it's slightly less IIRC). It's ability is great, but I don't think it completely balances its stats. I'd personally prefer a speed buff.

 

I'd also like to see re-flak actually be able to do cool trick shots somewhat reliably, as intended, but I assume that has to do with weird map geometry, rather than the weapon itself (And therefor not under the purview of this thread)

Having done some fuzzy bunny with the G2R in coop bots, i think the ability could use a little more speed, but its already got some ridiculous speed with the right internals, though i think the hp buff is good, dont give it too much, its VERY bad when a G2R has 800 hp, so much death.

 

and yeah, the reflak is cause of the map geometry, 

[n3onfx]

 

If Flak + missile is so good, why don't more people complain about the brawler? It's because the brawler is much harder to get into the optimal range (you must wait for enemies to come to you because they are all faster than you). Whereas the scout can reliably stroll up to anyone he wants to kill (everyone's slower than him).

 

 

Eh I got to disagree about that part, a good Brawler is a lot scarier and does more to help a team than a good scout in higher average mmr games. Also while a Heat Scout is less flashy than a Flak Scout they can do way more damage against heavier composition teams. Flak Scout is great at landing the last couple hits on someone who's already in trouble, so your perception of which is more effective may be warped by it.

 

Flak Scout is probably the mech that can pubstomp the fastest in the hands of a player that's way above the average mmr in a room due to its speed the fact that it allows to jump from fight to fight faster than with any other mech, but that doesn't make it overpowered.

 

I really don't see how you could lower any stats on Flak Scout and not see it disappear from higher level play, the thing already melts to pretty much anything.

[Chickin]

Please add to the Heat Cannon section:

 

1. Reduce the volume level of its charging. It is obnoxiously loud currently � can be heard from miles away.

 

2. Mute the trembling of the charged Heat Cannon. It just gives you away when you're trying to be sneaky, and there's no reason to have it in the game.

 

I would add the same for the breacher, it's just damn loud while charging.Tone it down just a little bit.

 

Few months back someone mentioned shock coils internal redesign,

so that they ,while equipped, negate the fall damage and reduce the volume of walking.

That would be sweet, especially for preds and infils..

[M4st0d0n]

Unreadable exhaustive listing much?

 

Shellack record mode on.

 

Here are some of the old forum threads where there was debate, followed by my stance on the subject.

 

- Healing in the game. It's not a strategical asset, everyone and their mum can self heal, then there is the tech and orbs.

- Either no clip trough teammate and no friendly fire, or clip and friendly fire. One is arcade the other is realist. What we've got here is a piss poor combination leading to clusterfuzzy bunnys and people jumping in front of each others to steal kills.

- Heat meters are nearly purely cosmetics, everything is spamable.

- Internals and items are not sidegrades but direct upgrades. I've got them all on a pile of creds so I personnaly dont care, but there is definately a vertical progression (bad) behind paywalls (bad).

- There is still no competitive mode. There is still no endgame. Matchmaker is abused by smurfes and stats hoarders. Give us something to fight for after the grind.

- Community events are not promoted by the game, they should be on the front page of the site, in the launcher of the game.

- Siege is not balanced. Still waiting for 2.0. It was sold as THE unique competitive gamemode of BrHawken. People are fed up with TDM (I mean normal people, not the list making nerds we are).

- Gamechanger patches. It's the way to say to the community you dont know what you're doing. Keep changes to the meta gradual.

- Elite betatesters / Community Moderators. Spliting the community, Led to a big mess. It already smells like teen spirit enough in here so dont make them sign NDAs. If the forum is not enough for you to get decent feedback, implement a system ingame.

 

Here you go. I dont plan to play, but...